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Rank em: Montana, Bradshaw, or Brady


mavsgrad
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With the Patriots winning the Super Bowl we now have 3 NFL QB's with 4 SB wins. There has been much debate in the media as to where Brady stacks up against the other best all time QB's. I was just curious how some of you would rank these 3 qb's?

 

Below are the career Super Bowl stats on all 3 guys.

 

Joe Montana 4-0 with 11 TD's, 0 int's and an average QB rating of 127.8

Terry Bradshaw 4-0 with 9 TD's, 4 int's and an average QB rating of 112.8

Tom Brady 4-2 with 13 TD's, 4 int's and an average QB rating of 95.3

 

I would definetly put Monanta first. I felt that way even before I looked up the statistics. You can't really argue with a guy who was 4-0 in 4 SB appearances and never threw an Int. 

 

It's hard to pick between Bradshaw and Brady. The stats say Bradshaw and two of Brady's wins came off of the kicking foot of Adam Vinatieri and the latest win was a result of a bone head offensive call by Seattle and an interception by the Patriot's D. Also, I was a Raiders fan when the tuck rule game happened so that doesn't help Mr. Brady out in this debate either lol.

 

I will give Brady this, he has clearly set himself apart from Peyton in that debate but as far as how he stacks up against the other two 4 timers I would put him a close third behind Bradshaw, and both clearly behind Joe Montana.

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Are we talking about what QB you would rather have in a Super Bowl, or the greatest QB of all time?

 

 

My answer is the same regardless, Montana at #1. He never threw an interception in the Super Bowl, is maybe the most clutch quarterback ever, and has his signature moments.

I also believe he beat better teams in his four wins than Brady overall. Seattle is better than Cincy x2, Denver and Miami but as a whole I think the SF opponents were better.

He has his come from behind, 90 yard touchdown drive in the fourth quarter to beat a good Cincy team with his winning TD pass to Taylor in the last seconds, he out dueled a future HOFer and top 5 QB in Marino and beat them convincingly, absolutely annihilated John Elway 55-10 (still biggest winning margin ever), and beat a decent Cincy team for his first SB with Kenny Anderson as the Bengals QB. It shoulda been a San Diego/San Francisco Super Bowl, I believe the Chargers had the better team overall but had to play in CIncy in a game with like a minus-50 windchill. SD had Fouts, Winslow, etc.. but the Bengals prevailed that day and didnt get blown out by SF in 1981.

 

I would rank them:
Montana

Brady

Bradshaw

 

I never really viewed Bradshaw as an elite, top of the top QB. He was the beneficiary of arguably the best overall team ever with HOFers at RB, two WRs, one OL, DT, two LBs, and a top 5 all-time CB in Mel Blount, He made some big plays in big moments, but his career as a whole is not as good as Brady or Montana. Neither Tom nor Joe were ever almost benched permanently for Terry Gilliam.

 

If we are just doing like top five all-time QBs, I would rank:

1-Montana

2-Brady

3-Manning

4-Elway

5-Marino 

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I disagree on some of your Bradshaw assessments, he never blew anyone out (he was one Jackie Smith drop from losing to Dallas. That is one of the most memorable calls ever by Verne Lundquist) and played against not great teams twice in the Rams and Vikings. He was only SB MVP twice while both Brady and Montana are the only three-time Super Bowl MVPs

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I disagree on some of your Bradshaw assessments, he never blew anyone out (he was one Jackie Smith drop from losing to Dallas. That is one of the most memorable calls ever by Verne Lundquist) and played against not great teams twice in the Rams and Vikings. He was only SB MVP twice while both Brady and Montana are the only three-time Super Bowl MVPs

 

First, above, it was Joe Gilliam.

 

Second, Pittsburgh led Super Bowl XIII 35-17 before Dallas scored 2 frantic TDs in the last 6 minutes of the game.  If anything, Pittsburgh's defense doesn't relax if Smith catches that 3rd-quarter pass, and Pittsburgh wins the game by 2 scores.  Remember, Dallas scored 14 points before Pittsburgh ever got the ball back on that last onside kick.  Pittsburgh played prevent defense on the last 2 drives, and Staubach and Dorsett ate them alive on slants.

 

I think the much better argument came the following year, where Los Angeles lost Pat Haden in the NFC Championship Game.  The Rams had to start Vince Ferragamo the following week, who was sacked umpteen times and screwed up 2 TDs in the 2nd quarter by throwing bullet passes over his WRs' heads.  And he STILL had the Rams in position to win that game until he missed an impossibly wide-open Billy Waddy and threw that interception to Lambert.  Imagine if Ferragamo shows a little bit of passing touch: it's 21-10 at halftime, and 27-17 entering the 4th quarter.  Whole different ballgame at that point.

 

Further, I think using titles as the metric to rank QBs is akin to ranking an entire university on how strong the English department is.  It's flawed on its face.  It's not Marino's fault that Miami didn't even pretend to surround him with a capable defense.  It's not Elway's fault that his defenses pissed themselves in Super Bowls.  It isn't Fran Tarkenton's fault that his defenses were freaking decrepit.  And people forget that Joe Montana lost that 1991 NFC Championship as strong favorites against the Giants with some very mediocre stats.  People forget Brady's 3 AFC Championship losses, as well as Bradshaw's loss.  It's all about context.

 

Ranking the 3:

(1) Montana

(2) Brady

(3) Bradshaw

 

Ranking the 5:

(1) Manning

(2) Montana

(3) Brady

(4) Marino

(5) Elway

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UVA, I agree that you can't judge a career off of playoffs or superbowls alone but how can you rank Manning ahead of Montana??? I like Peyton a lot. I certainly like him a lot better than Brady but there is no way he ranks higher than Montana. You mentioned Montana in the NFC loss to the Giants but Peyton has had some ugly games, especially in the playoffs. He has thrown 3 TD's and 4 Int's in his 3 SB appearances. He never plays well in Foxboro and he lost to the a less than amazing Colts team, in a home game, after coming off of a bye. I like Peyton a lot but he seems to be stronger on the stats end than he is in the win column, especially in big games.

 

GMan, Favre was a gamer no question but he threw 336 int's in his career compared to 508 td's. That's not a great ratio. If he is in your top five who do you replace?

 

My top 5

 

1. Montana

2. Elway

3. Brady

4. Manning

5. Marino

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How can anyone have a Top 5 NFL QB list without Brett Favre???  Not possible, Gentlemen...

 

The guy who wasn't good enough for Jenn Sterger passed his team out of a lot of games over the course of his career.  Only made 2 Super Bowls, and only won the 1.  Cost himself two more Super Bowls by just gawd-awful play (2007, 2009).  And he should shoulder a little bit of the blame for stopping that 13-year NFC Super Bowl streak. 

 

Further, none of the Top 5 QBs had a season as disastrous as Green Bay's 2005 season was.

 

His records are a product of his longevity.

 

I'd put him 6th.  

 

(7) Bart Starr [negatives - fell off hard at the end of his career, often injured, GB was a predominantly rushing team]

(8) Terry Bradshaw

(9) Fran Tarkenton

(10) Roger Staubach

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UVA, I agree that you can't judge a career off of playoffs or superbowls alone but how can you rank Manning ahead of Montana??? I like Peyton a lot. I certainly like him a lot better than Brady but there is no way he ranks higher than Montana. You mentioned Montana in the NFC loss to the Giants but Peyton has had some ugly games, especially in the playoffs. He has thrown 3 TD's and 4 Int's in his 3 SB appearances. He never plays well in Foxboro and he lost to the a less than amazing Colts team, in a home game, after coming off of a bye. I like Peyton a lot but he seems to be stronger on the stats end than he is in the win column, especially in big games.

 

GMan, Favre was a gamer no question but he threw 336 int's in his career compared to 508 td's. That's not a great ratio. If he is in your top five who do you replace?

 

My top 5

 

1. Montana

2. Elway

3. Brady

4. Manning

5. Marino

 

That's a fair criticism.  But after Edgerrin James left, indy never gave him much of a running game.  His defense was always porous.  His playoff record is subpar, but many of those teams he willed there without much in the way of a supporting cast

 

I think if you replace Manning with Brady, I think Manning has 6-8 titles.  Firmly believe that.

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As ive said before im no Brady or Patriots fan BUT the numbers are ridiculous; 4 SB titles, 2 SB loses and 3 AFC Championship game appearances.

 

Some people hold the loses against him but I dont, he made it to BIG games and as often as not came out on top. I dont think he just didnt show up in any of the loses.

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First, above, it was Joe Gilliam.

 

You are exactly right, I stand corrected.

 

Second, Pittsburgh led Super Bowl XIII 35-17 before Dallas scored 2 frantic TDs in the last 6 minutes of the game.  If anything, Pittsburgh's defense doesn't relax if Smith catches that 3rd-quarter pass, and Pittsburgh wins the game by 2 scores.  Remember, Dallas scored 14 points before Pittsburgh ever got the ball back on that last onside kick.  Pittsburgh played prevent defense on the last 2 drives, and Staubach and Dorsett ate them alive on slants.

 

That is true, but the game did come down to the final minutes, but Dallas was a GREAT team and Pittsburgh beat them twice. But beating the Hayden-less Rams (Vic Ferragamo was their QB IIRC) and the Vikings with no real threats in the passing game arent great teams. 

 

 

 

I think the much better argument came the following year, where Los Angeles lost Pat Haden in the NFC Championship Game.  The Rams had to start Vince Ferragamo the following week, who was sacked umpteen times and screwed up 2 TDs in the 2nd quarter by throwing bullet passes over his WRs' heads.  And he STILL had the Rams in position to win that game until he missed an impossibly wide-open Billy Waddy and threw that interception to Lambert.  Imagine if Ferragamo shows a little bit of passing touch: it's 21-10 at halftime, and 27-17 entering the 4th quarter.  Whole different ballgame at that point.

 

Further, I think using titles as the metric to rank QBs is akin to ranking an entire university on how strong the English department is.  It's flawed on its face.  It's not Marino's fault that Miami didn't even pretend to surround him with a capable defense.  It's not Elway's fault that his defenses pissed themselves in Super Bowls.  It isn't Fran Tarkenton's fault that his defenses were freaking decrepit.  And people forget that Joe Montana lost that 1991 NFC Championship as strong favorites against the Giants with some very mediocre stats.  People forget Brady's 3 AFC Championship losses, as well as Bradshaw's loss.  It's all about context.

 

Ranking the 3:

(1) Montana

(2) Brady

(3) Bradshaw

 

Ranking the 5:

(1) Manning

(2) Montana

(3) Brady

(4) Marino

(5) Elway

I agree with the list but theres no way I would put Manning ahead of Montana, because of Manning's post season choke jobs. Its not like he did not have offensive talent around him, Edge, Harrison, Wayne, Clark, etc... He had weapons. Sure Montana played on great teams, but Manning's teams werent chopped liver and Montana never had as many bad post-season games as Manning has had. The 91 NFC title game was hard to swallow, but Montana was hurt early in the game and Parcell flummoxed the Niners offense and it came down to the last possession. That Giants team were pretty good, the defense was NASTY.

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So by that analogy, Kareem is the greatest basketball player of all-time.

 

He after all has the most points in NBA history, so he has to be the best then, right?

This is an opinion thread.  There is no right or wrong answer.  It's not a contest to prove who is right or wrong.  He has his opinion, and you have yours.  Can't we just agree on that without you having to have the last freaking word on everything?  My gosh you're irritating.

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And I posted my opinion of using the touchdown record as a metric as declaring the best QB.

 

 

We were going back and forth about it, and I gave an apt analogy as to why I (MYSELF) believe that the TD record is not a great indicator of the greatest QB because before Manning held it, Favre did and no one called him the greatest.

 

I seem to think that you just dont like me, and thats fine. But I was giving my opinion on him using that analogy, and was looking forward to his response. Its not about right or wrong, its about debating opinions, and that is exactly what I was doing.

 

Ive made peace with most everyone on here, and if you find it annoying that I like to go point for point in an argument, avoid my posts, ignore me altogether.

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So by that analogy, Kareem is the greatest basketball player of all-time.

 

He after all has the most points in NBA history, so he has to be the best then, right?

 

It's closer than people would imagine.  Kareem won 6 titles, just like Jordan.  His PPG stats are incredible for a 19-year career, and he obviously has more rebounds and blocks.  But Kareem wasn't "cool" like Jordan, and Kareem didn't even make a token effort to play defense in the '80s, whereas Jordan fully exerted himself at that end.

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If you bothered to read that list, Peyton holds more than just one passing record.  As I said, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, Manning is the #1 overall QB and that link provides a part of the reason I believe this to be true.  

 

You get yourself bound in knots when your opinion is not accepted as the gospel.  I hate to tell you this but there has been only one perfect person on this Earth and you my friend are not him.

 

I am now going to decide if you are actually worthy of a significant lambasting or if you should be completely ignored.  I think just ignoring you would cut you deeper but using you as a whipping post is also very appealing.  To be determined...

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If you bothered to read that list, Peyton holds more than just one passing record.  As I said, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, Manning is the #1 overall QB and that link provides a part of the reason I believe this to be true.  

 

You get yourself bound in knots when your opinion is not accepted as the gospel.  I hate to tell you this but there has been only one perfect person on this Earth and you my friend are not him.

 

I am now going to decide if you are actually worthy of a significant lambasting or if you should be completely ignored.  I think just ignoring you would cut you deeper but using you as a whipping post is also very appealing.  To be determined...

Bingo!

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And I posted my opinion of using the touchdown record as a metric as declaring the best QB.

 

 

We were going back and forth about it, and I gave an apt analogy as to why I (MYSELF) believe that the TD record is not a great indicator of the greatest QB because before Manning held it, Favre did and no one called him the greatest.

 

I seem to think that you just dont like me, and thats fine. But I was giving my opinion on him using that analogy, and was looking forward to his response. Its not about right or wrong, its about debating opinions, and that is exactly what I was doing.

 

Ive made peace with most everyone on here, and if you find it annoying that I like to go point for point in an argument, avoid my posts, ignore me altogether.

You have made peace with UVA.  I doubt that qualifies as making peace with 'most everyone here', but if it makes you feel better, we'll go with that.  UVA is a great guy, and he has my respect.  You don't.

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It's closer than people would imagine.  Kareem won 6 titles, just like Jordan.  His PPG stats are incredible for a 19-year career, and he obviously has more rebounds and blocks.  But Kareem wasn't "cool" like Jordan, and Kareem didn't even make a token effort to play defense in the '80s, whereas Jordan fully exerted himself at that end.

 

I agree that Kareem is severely underrated in terms of his legacy, he was competing for titles in Milwaukee way before his glory years in LA. The skyhook was unblockable, it was the perfect shot. And to be able to succeed at such a high level when he was as old as he was is an incredible feat, kinda like the way Tim Duncan is now. 

 

I dont think Kareem is the greatest, I would rank Jordan ahead of him for sure, and probably Bill Russell, but Kareem has to be in the conversation for top five.

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If you bothered to read that list, Peyton holds more than just one passing record.  As I said, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION, Manning is the #1 overall QB and that link provides a part of the reason I believe this to be true.  

 

You get yourself bound in knots when your opinion is not accepted as the gospel.  I hate to tell you this but there has been only one perfect person on this Earth and you my friend are not him.

 

I am now going to decide if you are actually worthy of a significant lambasting or if you should be completely ignored.  I think just ignoring you would cut you deeper but using you as a whipping post is also very appealing.  To be determined...

And I am just giving my opinion. Im not saying my opinion is worth more than yours, I was giving you my opinion after you shared yours.

 

Why is it people get upset if I share my opinion? Thats what this place is about, discussion. We were having a discussion, I saw what I believed was a flaw in your logic, and pointed it out in regards to why I dont believe Peyton is the greatest QB. 

 

Peyton might hold all the records, he does. Passing yards, TDs, etc... But records alone do not determine greatness. Marino was the long time holder of some of those records, but he was never considered the greatest. Same with Favre.

 

I cannot for the life of me figure out why when I share my opinion I am in the wrong but its okay for everyone else to share theirs. My opinion is just that, an opinion, and I dont claim its worth more than anyone else's.

 

Why is it a problem for me to respond to your post with a logical post defending my opinion, when you did the same exact thing?

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And I am just giving my opinion. Im not saying my opinion is worth more than yours, I was giving you my opinion after you shared yours.

 

Why is it people get upset if I share my opinion? Thats what this place is about, discussion. We were having a discussion, I saw what I believed was a flaw in your logic, and pointed it out in regards to why I dont believe Peyton is the greatest QB. 

 

Peyton might hold all the records, he does. Passing yards, TDs, etc... But records alone do not determine greatness. Marino was the long time holder of some of those records, but he was never considered the greatest. Same with Favre.

 

I cannot for the life of me figure out why when I share my opinion I am in the wrong but its okay for everyone else to share theirs. My opinion is just that, an opinion, and I dont claim its worth more than anyone else's.

 

Why is it a problem for me to respond to your post with a logical post defending my opinion, when you did the same exact thing?

Sigh...several of us tried to reason with you, but you would have none of it.  You are right, and everyone else is wrong.  You state you have "never" (insert lame denial here), when we all have seen you do the very things you deny.  Everybody is picking on poor little BW, and BW never does anything to deserve it.  News Flash...you're in the overwhelming minority.  Re-read this thread, and if you can't figure out why some of us have a problem with you, then you're beyond help.  http://www.swvasports.com/ipb/index.php?/topic/33817-union-49-central-46-union/page-5

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I never once said I was right in this thread, I just posted my opinion. 

 

 

If you have a problem with me giving my opinion, simply do not read it. Its a simple concept.

 

I never once said I was right and everyone else was wrong. You are putting words in my mouth. 

 

Please show some examples instead of vague references.

 

Again, you seem to not be able to view me in a state with no bias. 

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I never once said I was right in this thread, I just posted my opinion. 

 

 

If you have a problem with me giving my opinion, simply do not read it. Its a simple concept.

 

I never once said I was right and everyone else was wrong. You are putting words in my mouth. 

 

Please show some examples instead of vague references.

 

Again, you seem to not be able to view me in a state with no bias. 

The link I posted has examples of "all of the above".  This string of comments alone is evidence of your propensity to be in denial.  Here's just one example, but the thread is full of others. Play the role of victim if you choose, but it won't fly here.  Everyone here can read.

 

 

 

You guys have given me all sorts of shit, yet you come in to this thread and talk shit and be petty and insult me, yet I am the problem?

 

If you dont want me here, fine. If you guys get so wound up over one poster, then fine ban me and I sure as shit wont try and make multi-accounts to post.

 

But if you guys are going to continue to be assholes and gang up on me, I will simply peace out and it will truly be your loss.

 

Once again, you took the first shot, and get all pissy when I fire back.

 

Okay, I dont wanna bitch back and forth with you. Truce?

 

You are so full of shit, how many times did Barnett and Noaks get MAULED?

 

Until you get your head out of your ass and realize just how wrong you are, dont respond to me, you are not worth my time.

 

I'm rooting for a 28-24 New England win (I am a Niners fan, fuck Seattle), but a Seattle win is not a surprising outcome.

 

I'm done here.  Now let's have another denial post by you explaining once again how you are the victim. 

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ONCE AGAIN, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE DO TO WITH ME POSTING MY OPINION?

 

and you do realize that those posts are in response to other posters, not out of the blue comments except the thing about Seattle, which was directed at no one in particular.

 

You threw a fit when I posted that I disagreed with the logic that because Peyton Manning holds so many of the passing records that he is the best QB of all time, and gave an apt analogy as to why. But you just wont let it go.

 

 

So forget it, just ignore me then, avoid the threads I post in or just skim over my posts since you have such vile in your head for me.

 

Good, let the hate flow through you.............(first one to get the movie reference gets a point)

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