Why is SWVA More Successful Than NETN?

[V-Cats 472]

Something I've long wondered about is why Southwest Virginia schools have long been more successful on the State level than our neighbors in Northeast Tennessee. This is especially confounding given that SWVA is much less socioeconomically identical to the rest of the state compared to NETN

 

This goes beyond football, but it is the most obvious and glaring example. Since 1970, (Chilhowie (1), Gate City (5), Appalachia (6), J.I. Burton (1), Clintwood (4), J.J. Kelly (1), Powell Valley (8), Jonesville (1), Tazewell (1), Richlands (2), Graham (3), George Wythe (2), and Galax (1)) 12 different SWVA teams have won a State Championship; with a sum of 36 between them.

 

In comparison, only two (2!) NETN schools have football State Championships during that time (Tennessee High (2) and Greeneville (2)) for a combined total of 4.

 

Note: Sorry Dobyns-Bennett, pre-playoff/poll championships don't count!

 

For those keeping score, SWVA teams have been either six or nine times more successful than their friends on the other side of State Street

 

So, does anyone have any thoughts or insights on this phenomenon?

[West12aaa 99]

If I was guess, the difference in coaching salary. Net vs knox/me

 

Maybe the inability to have a stable program?

 

Now that I think about, VA has a huge gap on population density. The state doesn't begin till Roanoke and they don't care till fairfax or richmond due to the mass of population.

 

Tennessee population is a little better spread out allowing for more smaller classification schools and the greater variety among the 1-3aa ranks that are NET. For those schools that are large DB etc they fall into the category that Abingdon(sorry i love you falcons) is now.

 

Me thinking out loud, and not really wanting to research it

[sixcat 2,918]

One factor would have to be the sheer talent in the Nashville and Memphis areas.  Not just talent as in state level but talent as in a national level.  We attended a high school game last fall between Independence High and Summitt High in Thomson Station near Nashville.  The level of play was a far cry better than anything I have seen in Virginia.  With that said, both schools would dwarf any school in terms of enrollment in SWVA, including Carroll. 

 

Check it out for yourself.

 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

One factor would have to be the sheer talent in the Nashville and Memphis areas. Not just talent as in state level but talent as in a national level. We attended a high school game last fall between Independence High and Summitt High in Thomson Station near Nashville. The level of play was a far cry better than anything I have seen in Virginia. With that said, both schools would dwarf any school in terms of enrollment in SWVA, including Carroll.

 

Check it out for yourself.

 

NO MORE CALLS...

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Forgive me for thinking (or typing) out loud, but here's my theory.....

 

I think there are two factors, and one has a tremendous impact upon the other.  The first is what I would refer to as relative demographics -- more specifically, the way that SW Virginia and NE Tennessee relate to their respective states.  Given the geographical distribution of population in Virginia, there is a greater concentration of smaller schools in Southwest Virginia compared to the rest of the Commonwealth.  So from a statistical standpoint, with all other factors being equal there is always a greater probability that a state champion will emerge from Southwest Virginia within the smallest classification(s).

 

The second factor is the nature of the classification system itself.  The middle classifications in Virginia (AA and Divisions 3 and 4) have been and remain remarkably equitable in terms of standard deviation.  (Put simply, there is never a huge gap between the smallest and largest members of these groups -- or at least not to the extent that there may be in the lowest and highest classifications.)  Beyond SW Virginia's statistical dominance of the lower classifications in terms of sheer numbers, the largest schools in our particular region have still had the benefit of participating in a very equitable statewide system.

 

On the Tennessee side, the Tri Cities area serves as an isolated pocket of high population within the overall state.  As a result, my understanding is that a lot of the more powerful NE Tennessee schools in our region are competing within the highest classification of the TSSAA where there can be wide disparities in enrollment.  The talent disparities compared to emerging metropolitan areas like Memphis and Nashville is a symptom of this demographic factor, IMO.  And there is also the matter of private schools competing within the same system as public schools in Tennessee, which probably generates some impact upon relative levels of competition there.

 

Long story short....  SW Virginia schools are typically competing against peers of the same relative size and nature for state championships, while NE Tennessee schools are swimming in the shallower end of their respective classification pool.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

To further illustrate the point, consider the experience of the Southwest District from 1956 to 1970.

 

The SWD was founded primarily because certain schools (such as Marion, Richlands, and Virginia High) were deemed by the VHSL to be too large to continue competing in Group II.  Other schools (such as Saltville and Graham) presumably came along and joined the SWD because Group I was the only level of play that offered access to a recognized state championship at the time.  From a comparative standpoint, the SWD schools were almost always the smallest members within Group I and were at an obvious competitive disadvantage as a result.  Although I stand to be corrected, no SWD team ever won a playoff game in any sport within the Group I structure for the entire time that the district was part of that classification.  Graham was recognized as the 1962 state champion in football, but that was the result of a rating system and occurred after the title had been stripped from Andrew Lewis.

 

Whereas Virginia's reclassification in 1970 offered schools in our region the opportunity to play for a state championship (and for the very first time in most cases) in an equitable system, most NE Tennessee schools are still trapped in a system that resembles the VHSL from 1956 to 1970.

[sixcat 2,918]

http://www.pmhsports.com/story/tssaa-classifications-2013-2017-seasons

 

Tennessee high school enrollment figures.  

[sixcat 2,918]

It seems at a glance that the classifications are well established and evenly balanced in terms of enrollment figures.  A rough estimation would fall something similar to this.....

 

0-350 = 1A

350-550 = 2A

550-750 = 3A

750-1000 = 4A

1000-1400 = 5A

1400+ = 6A

 

There are a few outliers in the first few classifications but each school within the classification agreed to allow the private schools to play down based on very understandable reasons.  Each of those schools cater to a large segment of handicapped kids.  The only NETN school that doesn't fall well inside their respective classification is Sullivan Central.

 

I personally feel like NETN can't match the level of talent Memphis and Nashville have.  Not too many areas of the country can.  Take a look through the ESPN and Rivals top 300 and see how many are from those areas.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Ultimately, I think that the talent disparity (noted by sixcat) is probably the biggest factor that affects the success of NE Tennessee teams.  Based on the excellent info in the link that sixcat posted, it appears that the NE Tennessee teams are comparable to their class mates in terms of enrollment but that they are geographically isolated (D-B and Science Hill in 6A in particular).  It's also worth noting that the largest Tennessee schools are much smaller than the largest Virginia schools, which means that the Virginia classification system does shield SW Virginia schools to a certain extent from the same talent disparity created by Northern Virginia and Tidewater. 

[sixcat 2,918]

Ultimately, I think that the talent disparity (noted by sixcat) is probably the biggest factor that affects the success of NE Tennessee teams.  Based on the excellent info in the link that sixcat posted, it appears that the NE Tennessee teams are comparable to their class mates in terms of enrollment but that they are geographically isolated (D-B and Science Hill in 6A in particular).  It's also worth noting that the largest Tennessee schools are much smaller than the largest Virginia schools, which means that the Virginia classification system does shield SW Virginia schools to a certain extent from the same talent disparity created by Northern Virginia and Tidewater. 

Being geographically isolated makes more of a difference than the average fan will consider.  It makes it very difficult to play similar competition as the schools in and around Memphis and Nashville that already have other significant advantages.

 

I was interested to see Independence High was the second smallest 6A high school.  They went 15-0 and were never really threatened all season.  They beat Summit 48-12 I believe in the game we attended.  

[West12aaa 99]

Something odd to watch is belfry play the knox schools like cak, knox catholic

 

 

I know if I had a child and the genes passed to me, the first school I would pick for football would be belfry by a loiioooooooonnnngggg mile.

[V-Cats 472]

It's also worth noting that the largest Tennessee schools are much smaller than the largest Virginia schools, which means that the Virginia classification system does shield SW Virginia schools to a certain extent from the same talent disparity created by Northern Virginia and Tidewater. 

 

Did my research, there are 18 high schools in Virginia that are larger than Tennessee's largest school, Blackman HS

 

Cite: http://www.pmhsports.com/story/tssaa-classifications-2013-2017-seasons 

https://k12.niche.com/rankings/public-high-schools/largest-enrollment/s/virginia/

[redtiger 1,740]

It seems at a glance that the classifications are well established and evenly balanced in terms of enrollment figures.  A rough estimation would fall something similar to this.....

 

0-350 = 1A

350-550 = 2A

550-750 = 3A

750-1000 = 4A

1000-1400 = 5A

1400+ = 6A

 

There are a few outliers in the first few classifications but each school within the classification agreed to allow the private schools to play down based on very understandable reasons.  Each of those schools cater to a large segment of handicapped kids.  The only NETN school that doesn't fall well inside their respective classification is Sullivan Central.

 

I personally feel like NETN can't match the level of talent Memphis and Nashville have.  Not too many areas of the country can.  Take a look through the ESPN and Rivals top 300 and see how many are from those areas.

Are the Nashville and Memphis schools primarily upper classification schools or are these areas represented by some small schools too? 

[BigWinners 1,642]

Nashville/Memphis have great talent, but the 757 usually produces as many if not more top prospects

[trublue 939]

The TSSAA Classifications for the 2013-2017 seasons article was posted on October 23, 2012...so enrollment figures are probably different now.

 

Stewarts Creek High School in Smyrna was opened in August of 2013.

I have a relative attending SCHS.  I, also, have a relative who graduated from Blackman HS.

 

The students listed for Stewarts Creek HS as of August 2015 were around 2000 students. (SCHS pulled some students from Blackman and a couple of other high schools/middle schools)  Blackman is around 2000 or possibly more.. (Blackman HS opened in 2000)
 

[hhstigerfan 12]

Ultimately, I think that the talent disparity (noted by sixcat) is probably the biggest factor that affects the success of NE Tennessee teams.  Based on the excellent info in the link that sixcat posted, it appears that the NE Tennessee teams are comparable to their class mates in terms of enrollment but that they are geographically isolated (D-B and Science Hill in 6A in particular).  It's also worth noting that the largest Tennessee schools are much smaller than the largest Virginia schools, which means that the Virginia classification system does shield SW Virginia schools to a certain extent from the same talent disparity created by Northern Virginia and Tidewater. 

I think a lot of it comes down to disparity between rural vs more urbanized areas or to population density of a school district. No matter their size schools from around Knoxville, Chattanooga, Nashville, Murfreesboro, Memphis, and Jackson dominate sports at the 1A, 2A, and 3A levels among the public schools. East Tennessee is the most populated section of Tennessee yet when it comes to state championships Middle and West Tennessee dominate by far and the reason is most of the schools in those two sections are mostly concentrated around Nashville and Memphis and their suburbs. The TSSAA actually did a study on this a while back and proposed a four classification system based on urban vs rural counted by population density instead of enrollment because they found that enrollment doesn't actually equate to competitiveness; it has to do with population density of the area served by the school. 1A would be small rural schools, 2A would be small urban/suburban schools, 3A big rural schools, 4A big urban/suburban schools. It makes sense to do things like that if you think about it, East TN has some of the largest schools in the state but many of them are consolidated county schools with a large enrollment but their student body is spread over a large area. You would think all those large schools would do well athletically but they don't.

[sixcat 2,918]

Are the Nashville and Memphis schools primarily upper classification schools or are these areas represented by some small schools too?

Not sure about Memphis but Nashville schools are primarily 4A to 6A. Most of the schools are comparable to the larger schools in our area.

 

Tennessee has done a significantly better job than Virginia of foreseeing future growth and development and preparing for it with new schools and infrastructure.

[sixcat 2,918]

Nashville/Memphis have great talent, but the 757 usually produces as many if not more top prospects

You might want to check high school rankings from recent years. Might have been the case a decade ago but not recently.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

You might want to check high school rankings from recent years. Might have been the case a decade ago but not recently.

He's like Punxsutawney Phil. The opposite is true 2/3 of the time.

[JDHoss 249]

Someone mentioned more talented teams in the Nashville and Memfuss areas, but truthfully, the NE Tennessee teams have struggled to make it past the Knoxville area. Aside from THS ages ago and Greeneville in a couple of seasons, they have been dominated in the playoffs by the Knoxville area schools, and just getting overwhelmed in most of those games. 

   

  Why? Probably a combination of talent, coaching and organization along with a general lack of population in that in Knox/Blount Co you are looking at around 625K people vs about 125K in Sullivan and about 125K in Washington. The Blount Co powerhouses (Murville & Alcoa) have an open enrollment, and I'm assuming the Knox Co schools do as well, and that's a huge population to draw from. While someone like Dobyns-Bennett may have a few kids that probably should be enrolled at Central, South, Volunteer or North, they aren't the type of athletes that schools like Murville, Alcoa, Fulton, West, Catholic and CAK are reeling in. 

 

Organization - I've lived in Kingsport for over 20 years now. I've worked with several guys who have coached their sons in the youth leagues. Nothing wrong with that I suppose, but those guys coach a couple or three years and and move on, many times trying to do their own thing with little emphasis on the fundamentals. You watch the good Knox/Blount teams play, and you see kids who don't miss tackles or blocks. They didn't just pick that up at the high school level. I'd guess those youth leagues there have guys who have been coaching for years and aren't interested in who a kid's dad is. 

 

Competition - Simply, the schools in that area week in and week out play against better competition. The two NE giants are D-B & Science Hill. Science Hill fared a little better than D-B, but I told a couple of my D-B fan coworkers that they would be lucky to win 5 games with the new Super 32 setup. They essentially traded in 4 extra open dates (actually better than open dates, as your starters get in a couple of quarters of work and your reserves get a ton of action) with Crockett, Boone, Volunteer and Central for 4 games with teams that you will need to at least play well to beat.

 

As for the schools like Elizabethton, THS, and others, it's as much of a struggle for them as it is D-B & SHHS. With Betsy, you're staring down the road at Alcoa or CAK. THS is looking at potential matchups with Knox West, Oak Ridge, ect. It's just a really tough road for these school up here.

 

 

 

[West12aaa 99]

I guess the paradox to me is how some of these 1a 2aa schools don't do better in the tssaa. Granted about every small school has been consolidated

[JDHoss 249]

I guess the paradox to me is how some of these 1a 2aa schools don't do better in the tssaa. Granted about every small school has been consolidated

 

The local A & AA teams in NET are few and far between now. Unaka, Cloudland & Hancock (Class A) and North, Happy Valley, North Greene, South Greene and Hampton in Class AA for NET.

 

As for North Greene & South Greene (and Chucky-Doak and west Greene in AAA), if a kid is a really good football player, they are going to "pay" to go to Greeneville to play for Cain Ballard in a program with superior facilities. Same for North with D-B or maybe even Gate City, and Happy Valley with Elizabethton. Hampton and Cloudland do a good job, as they are close knit communities and isolated enough that transfers are unlikely.

 

When it comes to the playoffs, you're probably going to run into a private school (Nasville Christian Class A champ last year) who while small in enrollment, may have several athletes that will play at the next level, or a team like Memfuss Trezevant who is also way more athletic. 

[RichlandsAlum 678]

I think this same dynamic is present between SW Virginia and Southern West Virginia for the time period involved.  If one were to draw a line across the Mountain State beginning approximately at Beckley, there haven't been many schools besides Bluefield that have even played for a state championship.

 

And I think I'd come to the same conclusion as the Tennessee comparison.  The issues related to high school athletic competition are often demographic, but Virginia's classification system actually provides a unique level of "insulation" against these effects in its application.  Whether this is coincidental or by design is its own debate.

[bustyachops 0]

I think the main difference between SWVA and NETN is the inclusion of private schools.  If Oak Hill Academy could play for a VHSL championship that would change the success of many public schools in VA.  Science Hill girls had a great group a few years ago and rarely lost a game to anyone except Riverdale.  Riverdale happens to be a huge private school in west TN. 

[RebRaider85 12]

I think the main difference between SWVA and NETN is the inclusion of private schools. If Oak Hill Academy could play for a VHSL championship that would change the success of many public schools in VA. Science Hill girls had a great group a few years ago and rarely lost a game to anyone except Riverdale. Riverdale happens to be a huge private school in west TN.

I agree about the private school equation and will post some additional thoughts on here later but I do have to correct one thing - Riverdale is huge (just like Science Hill) but they are a public school in the Rutherford county school system. The biggest privates in TN are only about 500 to 700 students and they make non-scholarship private schools play in classifications at 1.8 times their actual enrollment. There is not a private school in TN big enough to play in Science Hills class even with the 1.8 multiplier.