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SWVA all time teams


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7 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

My two cents...

Gate City and Powell Valley stand out as the top two in terms of an "all-time" perspective.  I give particular weight to the two state titles that they each won in the 1970-1985 time period.  Appalachia was consistently good throughout its existence as well, so it's easy for me to identify the Bulldogs as a not-distant #3.

I'm oddly ambivalent about including Richlands in this discussion.  The current era of high performance (roughly 2000-present) has certainly been a source of pride and joy.  But before 2000, the program overall had a W/L record hovering right around .500 (and the 1970's and 1980's were actually very bad in that regard).

And I think Graham might be extremely underappreciated in this discussion.  With rare exceptions, the G-Men have fielded a competitive product on the gridiron consistently since they started playing back in the 1920's.  Graham was the only SW Virginia school to win a state title in football prior to the 1970 reclassification .  And if they had actually been participating in Group A (and the subsequent Divisions 1 and 2) instead of playing up for as many years as they did after 1970, it's not hard to imagine that they would have acquired even more state and regional hardware than they already possess.

Those are my immediate thoughts with regard to the "all time" discussion.  If we want to limit it to the era that began in 1970, I can think of several schools that belong in the discussion.  But it wouldn't change my observations in this post very much.

 

Not only am I going to like this post, I'm going to publicly comment my approval and appreciation therefor.

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I also agree with the Graham comment. For a number of years, there were 2 regional champions (GC and Graham) and if I'm not mistaken, it was split right down the middle. GMan might be able to help me out with that, because I've slept since then. GC/Graham will always be my favorite rivalry, even topping GC and Powell Valley.

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4 hours ago, SXSW said:

I would put Gate City 1974 team against any team, past, present or future. That is the best team in Southwest Virginia history! That team was the total package of offense, defense and special teams, and the second best team was probably the 1970 team.

 

I'll take the 98 PV team. Best I've ever seen around here. 

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In my non-objective and biased opinion, Gate City is the best historic program in SWVA history up and until 2017.  I here what you folks are saying about Giles and Powell Valley and Appalachia and no question, Graham is definitely underestimated in these discussions.  I don't include Richlands in the discussion.  Richlands has 1 title in 92 and a great team it was, and then has been good since 2004ish.  Other than this history, they were mediocre forever and decades mores.  No offense Blues Fans, but it's true.  Since 2003-4ish, it's been the Blues at number 1.

Interesting Gate City Facts that supports my opinion, and disclaimer, I'm a fan and former player.

5 State Titles since 1970, BUT.....forget about these for a minute.  Let me give some numbers that will surprise you before 1970.  From 1956 to 1969 for Gate City High (14 seasons), there were 3 undefeated teams during this time for Gate City that were the best in Va.  They simply were not AA and don't have a title to show for it.  These teams were dominant for that era.  Gate City had another 3 teams in those 14 seasons with only 1 loss, and the rest of those seasons, there were a few 2 loss only seasons.  If we could measure titles like we do today or since 1970, Gate City High would have 8 titles, and maybe even 10.  This is what makes Appalachia underrated.  Appy has been very good (before combining with PV) for a long, long time, and I mean, back to the 1950's.  PV/Big Stone had a great run of about 18 years, but they were not as dominant for as long.  Even Shoemaker High (now GC High) was a powerhouse for years dating back well into the 1930's.  Finally, look at the Gate City runner up finishes over the years.  It's incredible.  Win looking at total wins and winning percentage and playoff wins, and the rest, Gate City is the best High School Football Program in SWVA historically.  This of course, is only my opinion.

1.  Gate City

2.  Appalachia (yes, over PV due to Appalachia's longevity of being competitive)

3.  Powell Valley  (ahead of Graham because of the volume of state titles) but they have not and were not as good or competitive for the length of time Graham has been)

4.  Graham (yes, over Giles because of Graham's success and longevity of being competitive dating well into the 1940's and 1950's playing at a higher level of Classification than all of these schools).  Has this program ever really been down?  Think about it, year in and year out, a threat to win every game they play in regular season.  A few downers after legendary Coach Glynn Carlock retired, but other than this, the program pretty much is never down, and even this year, a threat to win every game.  Even during those few down years, 5-5 or 6-4 still, not many 3-7's in this programs history. They may lose to Giles or Richlands, but again, a surprise if Graham were to win this year?  Of course not.  It will be the same for them next year.  Right in the thick of things.  There is not question about it, if Graham were playing largely at the single A level over the years, it would have had far, far more than 3 titles in its history and those PV titles of the 1980's and 1990's would not be as large.  Graham would have had a couple of those and Graham's enrollment numbers showed they should have been playing at that level, not at the level of increased classification it was playing, yet it was still winning and competing at the increased (outs of its enrollment) classification level.

5.  Giles (rings matter and Giles has a bunch)

Did you know that in 1996, Coach Harry Fry was flown down to Gainesville, Florida, before the Gators traveled to play in the national title game against FSU to give Steve Spurrier's Gators a "pep talk."   Spurrier befriended Coach Fry early in his career and they remained friends.  Coach Fry was so respected and admired not just in Gate City, but well reaching into Tennessee to include a friendly relationship with former Science Hill Star, Heisman Trophy Winner, and Elite College Football Coach Steve Spurrier.  Folks, the Big Blue Machine was bada** It's been that way for a long time, so you can understand the temporary frustration of late with fans such as myself.  It hurts.

 

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24 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

 

I'll take the 98 PV team. Best I've ever seen around here. 

Gate City would beat them by 14 points at Bullitt Park and by 28 at Legion Field......I have watched every game from the 74 season multiple times and that offence did not come off the field without scoring or turning the ball over, which was rare. As far as a top five all-time there are a big four: Gate City, Graham, Appy and Powell Valley number five is anyone's guess.

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16 hours ago, Hokiebird7 said:

And yet you still have ZERO titles unless you want to count the 38 & 39 titles(believe this is right) that you guys "claim" you have

As long as you have been alive you have been little brother in the county 

This wasn't about putting you down.  It was about comparing the histories Clintwood and Giles.  For being a fan of the "big brother",  you yourself always seem to think you have something to prove.  Thank the good lord you're in the minority of the fan base.  

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1 hour ago, TTownTigers said:

3.  Powell Valley  (ahead of Graham because of the volume of state titles) but they have not and were not as good or competitive for the length of time Graham has been)

 

Powell Valley had 5 sub .500 regular seasons in the history of the school.  4 of those came prior to 1970.  The last one came in 1977.  On the other hand, since 1970, Graham has had 11 sub .500 regular seasons..with 5 of those since the year 2000.  PV also leads Graham in 7 win seasons since 1970 29-25.  So, that justification can be thrown right out the window.  (BTW Gate City has had 7 sub .500 seasons...3 of those were prior to 1962, and the last 4 have all occurred after 1997.).

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1 hour ago, Great City said:

I was always told that GC "played up". No idea if that is true. Anyone have an idea?

I personally hold Gate City, Grundy, and Graham for costing Haysi and Clintwood some deep playoff runs and Honaker a state title or two in the late 90s / early 00s. If all 3 would have played A D2 where they belonged those three schools would have been A D1 (Honaker might have still been A D2.   GC played up for a shorter period than the others but still did for a couple of cycles

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1 hour ago, SXSW said:

Gate City would beat them by 14 points at Bullitt Park and by 28 at Legion Field......I have watched every game from the 74 season multiple times and that offence did not come off the field without scoring or turning the ball over, which was rare. As far as a top five all-time there are a big four: Gate City, Graham, Appy and Powell Valley number five is anyone's guess.

Def tinted glasses. Just bc you've watched a lot of their games is meaningless. I meant to type 97.

No team scored more than 22 points against PV that year, and the only game that was close was beating an Appalachia team that was state champs. Both teams beat 2A champs GC in regular season. It's all speculation, but saying any team beats one of the best PV teams by four TDs is crazy

 

 

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44 minutes ago, SW_VA_boy said:

This wasn't about putting you down.  It was about comparing the histories Clintwood and Giles.  For being a fan of the "big brother",  you yourself always seem to think you have something to prove.  Thank the good lord you're in the minority of the fan base.  

I'm not positive, but I think he saw the "Wave" on the helmet and thought you were talking up Narrows.

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1 hour ago, SXSW said:

Gate City would beat them by 14 points at Bullitt Park and by 28 at Legion Field......I have watched every game from the 74 season multiple times and that offence did not come off the field without scoring or turning the ball over, which was rare. As far as a top five all-time there are a big four: Gate City, Graham, Appy and Powell Valley number five is anyone's guess.

Crack kills...lay off the pipe.

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As a historian here is my perspective.

1.  Powell Valley   pros  8 state titles says a lot  -  con  almost never challenged themselves by playing up  lifetime winning %  .702

2.  Gate City         pros   5 state titles and consistently awesome teams -  they played up at times  -  cons - recent poor teams   winning %  .683

3.  Clintwood       pros - 4 state titles and consistently great teams - cons - Would slip back to mediocre for a season or two   winning % .673

4.  Graham         pros-  3 state titles and third place finish in 1958. Played up a lot (Bluefield, Princeton, Salem etc.)  cons - less titles and periods of average teams   winning %  .591

5.  Appalachia    pros - 6 state titles - when they were good they were great - cons  too many 1-9, 2-8 type seasons.  Never played up except for Powell Valley.  Too many wins vs Rye Cove, Ervinton, St. Paul etc.  winning %  .667

6.  Radford         pros - 2 state titles - consistently very good teams for a very long time - cons - not as many titles - not quite as good record as those above in the playoffs   winning % .628

7. Giles              pros - 4 state titles - 1980 AA title very impressive since there were only three classes. only one losing season since 1980 - they play up - Cons - terrible records until 1980    winning %  .648  

honorable mention   -  Pulaski County - for 20 years they were great  % .633 - Richlands - for the last 25 years they have been great, before that they were very average to below average  % .591

                                 -  J. I Burton   - very good teams that couldn't get passed their Wise County neighbors most of the time  % .575  - George Wythe - see Richlands  %  .602

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2 minutes ago, Bluefield researcher said:

As a historian here is my perspective.

1.  Powell Valley   pros  10 state titles says a lot  -  con  almost never challenged themselves by playing up  lifetime winning %  .702

2.  Gate City         pros   5 state titles and consistently awesome teams -  they played up at times  -  cons - recent poor teams   winning %  .683

3.  Clintwood       pros - 4 state titles and consistently great teams - cons - Would slip back to mediocre for a season or two   winning % .673

4.  Graham         pros-  3 state titles and third place finish in 1958. Played up a lot (Bluefield, Princeton, Salem etc.)  cons - less titles and periods of average teams   winning %  .591

5.  Appalachia    pros - 5 state titles - when they were good they were great - cons  too many 1-9, 2-8 type seasons.  Never played up except for Powell Valley.  Too many wins vs Rye Cove, Ervinton, St. Paul etc.  winning %  .667

6.  Radford         pros - 2 state titles - consistently very good teams for a very long time - cons - not as many titles - not quite as good record as those above in the playoffs   winning % .628

7. Giles              pros - 4 state titles - 1980 AA title very impressive since there were only three classes. only one losing season since 1980 - they play up - Cons - terrible records until 1980    winning %  .648  

honorable mention   -  Pulaski County - for 20 years they were great  % .633 - Richlands - for the last 25 years they have been great, before that they were very average to below average  % .591

                                 -  J. I Burton   - very good teams that couldn't get passed their Wise County neighbors most of the time  % .575  - George Wythe - see Richlands  %  .602

Powell Valley had 8 State Titles. 

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In the LPD, 7 games were district, so they were set.  The other 3 weren't easy to schedule for 2 reasons:

1-You had to find someone willing to play who had an opening where you had an opening.

2-For PV and Appy especially, you had to find a good school who wasn't afraid of "losing face". 

Put both of those together and the choices were scarce to even build a 10 team schedule, mush less schedule powerhouses.  If not for Richlands, Lee, Radford, Breathitt KY on occassion, GC (when not in the LPD), filling out a 10 game schedule for PV would have been near impossible.

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This post is in regards to the "Claiming state titles" before 1970 remark while referring to Narrows.

In the 1920's and 1930's there were three classes in Virginia.  A, B, C.  The only class that had an organized system for a state champion was the A class which was the biggest schools. The VHSL record book lists those. In 1954 the "A" class greatly expanded as a lot of the B Class teams joined A. The future SW District teams of Graham, Tazewell, Richlands, Grundy and Va High joined class A.  Covington was another team that joined class A. Class A rules stated that you must play a certain number of games vs other class A schools so SW schools started playing the Roanoke area Class A schools such as Fleming, Patrick Henry Roanoke and Jefferson.  Grundy was even playing E. C. Glass in the 1960's. The schools from Roanoke were happy because they no longer had to travel to Richmond, Tidewater and NOVA to get class A games.

But in the 1920's and 1930's the smaller classes would play regional and state class playoff games if both champions could work it out.  There was no requirement to play these games. They were optional and many times schools declined. In 1939 Narrows was champions of their district and Bedford champion of their District.  They played a playoff game and Narrows won.  The Class C team from the Eastern Shore declined to travel to Narrows to play so Narrows claims a championship. In 1938 all the Class C teams declined to play so again Narrows claims a championship. There were very few years that these games went the full playoff rounds. 

Other examples:

1928  Big Stone Gap defeated Christiansburg and South Boston in Class B playoff games. Could probably claim a state championship

1929  Big Stone Gap tied Saltville in a class B playoff game and advanced on a coin flip and then tied Washington - Lee from Arlington.  Washington - Lee traveled all the way to Big Stone Gap in 1929.

There are lots of these games I have found but since I am still working on many Eastern class B and C teams I don't have a clear picture of what all went on.

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55 minutes ago, sup_rbeast said:

Powell Valley had 5 sub .500 regular seasons in the history of the school.  4 of those came prior to 1970.  The last one came in 1977.  On the other hand, since 1970, Graham has had 11 sub .500 regular seasons..with 5 of those since the year 2000.  PV also leads Graham in 7 win seasons since 1970 29-25.  So, that justification can be thrown right out the window.  (BTW Gate City has had 7 sub .500 seasons...3 of those were prior to 1962, and the last 4 have all occurred after 1997.).

The part you are leaving out is the strength of schedule.  Powell Valley competed at its normal classification level for the amount of students and Graham didn't.  Graham was playing up for years, and many of those games playing the Giles, Blacksburg's, Salem's, GW Danville's.  Powell Valley did not play the schedule and did not play the level of competition that Graham has faced over the years and even this year, neither does Union.  Gate City again, has played at a higher level classification since 1970 and has crossed the border and played tough Tennessee schools and competed in a very good SW District years ago against the likes of Graham, Tazewell (very solid years ago), Richlands, Abingdon, etc.  When P. Valley was playing Coeburn, Gate City was playing a Graham, then having to get ready for a Blacksburg or Southampton or Martinsville in the playoffs, and Graham faced the same level of competition while P. Valley was readying up for Luneburg Central and Madison County.  Not the fault of P. Valley for playing at their level, but Gate City and Graham didn't.  Especially Graham who played up.  I recall working with several guys in the mines from Bluefield, VA, back years ago in the 1990's, and they told me Graham's coach at the time, Glynn Carlock had tried to play Powell Valley (Phil Robbins) for years and years, and he wouldn't play.  I don't know if that's true, but that's what they told me.

Finally, I repeat, if we count state titles back from 1950 to 1970 like we do today, Gate City may have 10.  They would at least have 8.  Additionally, if Gate City and Graham both would have played single A ball since 1970, Powell Valley would have nowhere close to the amount of state titles it has today.  Gate City would regularly beat P. VAlley anyway even when P. Valley had some of the great teams, only for Gate City to lose to a much better opponent in the playoffs, for example, a Radford, etc.  Finally, I continue to have to bring up Appalachia.  They were dramatically smaller in numbers than P. Valley, GC, Graham, etc.  They just should not have won as many titles, or have as many wins as they did.  This is why I give them the 2 spot behind Gate City as SWVA's all time best program.  Finally, the best team to ever come out of SWVA was GC 74, and the 70 team would be second.  5 starters went on to play Div 1 football and do well at Div 1 football, not just make the team.  That's unheard of for any SWVA team in history, even in today's time. 

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1 hour ago, SW_VA_boy said:

This wasn't about putting you down.  It was about comparing the histories Clintwood and Giles.  For being a fan of the "big brother",  you yourself always seem to think you have something to prove.  Thank the good lord you're in the minority of the fan base.  

Funny

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44 minutes ago, TTownTigers said:

The part you are leaving out is the strength of schedule.  Powell Valley competed at its normal classification level for the amount of students and Graham didn't.  Graham was playing up for years, and many of those games playing the Giles, Blacksburg's, Salem's, GW Danville's.  Powell Valley did not play the schedule and did not play the level of competition that Graham has faced over the years and even this year, neither does Union.  Gate City again, has played at a higher level classification since 1970 and has crossed the border and played tough Tennessee schools and competed in a very good SW District years ago against the likes of Graham, Tazewell (very solid years ago), Richlands, Abingdon, etc.  When P. Valley was playing Coeburn, Gate City was playing a Graham, then having to get ready for a Blacksburg or Southampton or Martinsville in the playoffs, and Graham faced the same level of competition while P. Valley was readying up for Luneburg Central and Madison County.  Not the fault of P. Valley for playing at their level, but Gate City and Graham didn't.  Especially Graham who played up.  I recall working with several guys in the mines from Bluefield, VA, back years ago in the 1990's, and they told me Graham's coach at the time, Glynn Carlock had tried to play Powell Valley (Phil Robbins) for years and years, and he wouldn't play.  I don't know if that's true, but that's what they told me.

Finally, I repeat, if we count state titles back from 1950 to 1970 like we do today, Gate City may have 10.  They would at least have 8.  Additionally, if Gate City and Graham both would have played single A ball since 1970, Powell Valley would have nowhere close to the amount of state titles it has today.  Gate City would regularly beat P. VAlley anyway even when P. Valley had some of the great teams, only for Gate City to lose to a much better opponent in the playoffs, for example, a Radford, etc.  Finally, I continue to have to bring up Appalachia.  They were dramatically smaller in numbers than P. Valley, GC, Graham, etc.  They just should not have won as many titles, or have as many wins as they did.  This is why I give them the 2 spot behind Gate City as SWVA's all time best program.  Finally, the best team to ever come out of SWVA was GC 74, and the 70 team would be second.  5 starters went on to play Div 1 football and do well at Div 1 football, not just make the team.  That's unheard of for any SWVA team in history, even in today's time. 

GC has played PV every year since 1986...that's for 6 of PV's Titles. GC's record vs PV during those Title years is 1-5, with an average score of 25-11 in the Vikings favor. The only GC win was a 1 point win in overtime. Enough of the GC superiority...be glad they were Division 3, because the way the playoffs were set up then, PV would've sent 'em home in the first round.

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1 hour ago, TTownTigers said:

 Especially Graham who played up.  I recall working with several guys in the mines from Bluefield, VA, back years ago in the 1990's, and they told me Graham's coach at the time, Glynn Carlock had tried to play Powell Valley (Phil Robbins) for years and years, and he wouldn't play.  I don't know if that's true, but that's what they told me.

 

I would say that is probably inaccurate because I was always told Coach Carlock would not schedule anyone below the division he was playing in.    It was  one of the bad things about Gate City dropping to A in the early 00s because that ended the GC/Graham series if my memory is correct. 

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