SWVA all time teams

[goose111874 967]

3 hours ago, TTownTigers said:

In my non-objective and biased opinion, Gate City is the best historic program in SWVA history up and until 2017.  I here what you folks are saying about Giles and Powell Valley and Appalachia and no question, Graham is definitely underestimated in these discussions.  I don't include Richlands in the discussion.  Richlands has 1 title in 92 and a great team it was, and then has been good since 2004ish.  Other than this history, they were mediocre forever and decades mores.  No offense Blues Fans, but it's true.  Since 2003-4ish, it's been the Blues at number 1.

Interesting Gate City Facts that supports my opinion, and disclaimer, I'm a fan and former player.

5 State Titles since 1970, BUT.....forget about these for a minute.  Let me give some numbers that will surprise you before 1970.  From 1956 to 1969 for Gate City High (14 seasons), there were 3 undefeated teams during this time for Gate City that were the best in Va.  They simply were not AA and don't have a title to show for it.  These teams were dominant for that era.  Gate City had another 3 teams in those 14 seasons with only 1 loss, and the rest of those seasons, there were a few 2 loss only seasons.  If we could measure titles like we do today or since 1970, Gate City High would have 8 titles, and maybe even 10.  This is what makes Appalachia underrated.  Appy has been very good (before combining with PV) for a long, long time, and I mean, back to the 1950's.  PV/Big Stone had a great run of about 18 years, but they were not as dominant for as long.  Even Shoemaker High (now GC High) was a powerhouse for years dating back well into the 1930's.  Finally, look at the Gate City runner up finishes over the years.  It's incredible.  Win looking at total wins and winning percentage and playoff wins, and the rest, Gate City is the best High School Football Program in SWVA historically.  This of course, is only my opinion.

1.  Gate City

2.  Appalachia (yes, over PV due to Appalachia's longevity of being competitive)

3.  Powell Valley  (ahead of Graham because of the volume of state titles) but they have not and were not as good or competitive for the length of time Graham has been)

4.  Graham (yes, over Giles because of Graham's success and longevity of being competitive dating well into the 1940's and 1950's playing at a higher level of Classification than all of these schools).  Has this program ever really been down?  Think about it, year in and year out, a threat to win every game they play in regular season.  A few downers after legendary Coach Glynn Carlock retired, but other than this, the program pretty much is never down, and even this year, a threat to win every game.  Even during those few down years, 5-5 or 6-4 still, not many 3-7's in this programs history. They may lose to Giles or Richlands, but again, a surprise if Graham were to win this year?  Of course not.  It will be the same for them next year.  Right in the thick of things.  There is not question about it, if Graham were playing largely at the single A level over the years, it would have had far, far more than 3 titles in its history and those PV titles of the 1980's and 1990's would not be as large.  Graham would have had a couple of those and Graham's enrollment numbers showed they should have been playing at that level, not at the level of increased classification it was playing, yet it was still winning and competing at the increased (outs of its enrollment) classification level.

5.  Giles (rings matter and Giles has a bunch)

Did you know that in 1996, Coach Harry Fry was flown down to Gainesville, Florida, before the Gators traveled to play in the national title game against FSU to give Steve Spurrier's Gators a "pep talk."   Spurrier befriended Coach Fry early in his career and they remained friends.  Coach Fry was so respected and admired not just in Gate City, but well reaching into Tennessee to include a friendly relationship with former Science Hill Star, Heisman Trophy Winner, and Elite College Football Coach Steve Spurrier.  Folks, the Big Blue Machine was bada** It's been that way for a long time, so you can understand the temporary frustration of late with fans such as myself.  It hurts.

 

I'll have to agree with you an Appalachia if there were playoffs going back 15-20 years you could add 4 or 5 state titles. Appy had a 5 year run from 1965-1969 were they went 47-2-1 and 2-2-1 vs gate city being their only blemishes and no one out east was going to stop Edd Clark

[sup_rbeast 296]

45 minutes ago, 1inStripes said:

I would say that is probably inaccurate because I was always told Coach Carlock would not schedule anyone below the division he was playing in.    It was  one of the bad things about Gate City dropping to A in the early 00s because that ended the GC/Graham series if my memory is correct. 

PV played all comers...the problem was finding comers. I know for a fact that in 1990 PV had such a hard time finding games after being dropped by Richlands and Honaker that they were begging for a game with anyone. Ended up with only 4 home games that year and had to travel to Haysi and Grundy to open up the season. Graham or anyone else could've had a game if they wanted it.

[Jason 299]

Too many unknowns here to be saying GC would do this or PV would do that. Just because a team beats another team in regular season don't mean they would do the same in the playoffs. Look at GC vs PV 2001 and 2007. GC vs Lebanon in 08 and 09. GC vs Union 2013. One thing that is for sure is both Gate City, and Powell Valley have great histories. A lot of pride and tradition for both. 

[1inStripes 932]

59 minutes ago, sup_rbeast said:

PV played all comers...the problem was finding comers. I know for a fact that in 1990 PV had such a hard time finding games after being dropped by Richlands and Honaker that they were begging for a game with anyone. Ended up with only 4 home games that year and had to travel to Haysi and Grundy to open up the season. Graham or anyone else could've had a game if they wanted it.

I was just referring to Coach Carlocks scheduling philosophy only.

[BigWinners 1,643]

2 hours ago, sup_rbeast said:

GC has played PV every year since 1986...that's for 6 of PV's Titles. GC's record vs PV during those Title years is 1-5, with an average score of 25-11 in the Vikings favor. The only GC win was a 1 point win in overtime. Enough of the GC superiority...be glad they were Division 3, because the way the playoffs were set up then, PV would've sent 'em home in the first round.

 

Not to mention, in one of GCs state titles, 97, they would've been the third best LPD team. Lost to both PV and AHS. 

[RichlandsAlum 678]

5 hours ago, TTownTigers said:

5 State Titles since 1970, BUT.....forget about these for a minute.  Let me give some numbers that will surprise you before 1970.  From 1956 to 1969 for Gate City High (14 seasons), there were 3 undefeated teams during this time for Gate City that were the best in Va.  They simply were not AA and don't have a title to show for it.  These teams were dominant for that era.  Gate City had another 3 teams in those 14 seasons with only 1 loss, and the rest of those seasons, there were a few 2 loss only seasons.  If we could measure titles like we do today or since 1970, Gate City High would have 8 titles, and maybe even 10.  This is what makes Appalachia underrated.  Appy has been very good (before combining with PV) for a long, long time, and I mean, back to the 1950's.  PV/Big Stone had a great run of about 18 years, but they were not as dominant for as long.  Even Shoemaker High (now GC High) was a powerhouse for years dating back well into the 1930's.  Finally, look at the Gate City runner up finishes over the years.  It's incredible.  Win looking at total wins and winning percentage and playoff wins, and the rest, Gate City is the best High School Football Program in SWVA historically.  This of course, is only my opinion.

 

Gate City actually competed as a member of the SWD (and therefore Division 1) for one season -- 1960.  Then they dropped back to the lower classification that had no recognized state title.  There's no reason to speculate about how many titles GC could have won, because they made the conscious (and probably very reasonable) decision not to compete for the recognized state championship of that era -- with the possible exception of 1960.

 And although reasonable minds may differ, the very best in SW Virginia typically paled in comparison to the big schools in Richmond, Tidewater, and NoVa even back in the 1950s and 1960s.  What I didn't mention before is that the only state title won by a SW Virginia school  from 1920 to 1970 (Graham in 1962) was awarded after Andrew Lewis was forced to vacate a victory over the G-Men that year.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

1 hour ago, goose111874 said:

I'll have to agree with you an Appalachia if there were playoffs going back 15-20 years you could add 4 or 5 state titles. Appy had a 5 year run from 1965-1969 were they went 47-2-1 and 2-2-1 vs gate city being their only blemishes and no one out east was going to stop Edd Clark

There is evidence to suggest that regional champions were recognized in Group II (or Group B -- or whatever the level was below Division 1).  And occasionally the Eastern and Western champions would play for a "state championship" if the two schools involved would agree to do so.  That makes the "if there were playoffs" argument hard to frame and defend.

Apparently Appalachia was either not recognized by the media as a regional champion within Group II even when they were undefeated, or they didn't attempt to make arrangements to play a postseason game to determine a "state championship" when they did.  Either way, it is apparent that Appalachia never made the commitment to play at a level that offered a recognized state championship prior to 1970.  Which is a shame, because it certainly would have been interesting to see the Stonega Stallion match up against the very best in the Commonwealth.

Fun fact....  The Bulldogs did play Richlands in 1951 for something akin to a "regional championship" after the conclusion of their regular postseason.  But the Blues won that contest 13-6.

[goose111874 967]

I just meant Appy playing against schools at their own level.  Teams like Hampton and other No. Va. schools would have been too tough for anyone in our area but it would've been fun to see Clark against that competition.

[Bluefield researcher 1,195]

16 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

There is evidence to suggest that regional champions were recognized in Group II (or Group B -- or whatever the level was below Division 1).  And occasionally the Eastern and Western champions would play for a "state championship" if the two schools involved would agree to do so.  That makes the "if there were playoffs" argument hard to frame and defend.

 

The last Regional game that I have seen was the 1951 game.  From then until 1965 there were none and then in 1965-1969 they at the lower levels they were only half state championships.  The AAA schools started playing playoff games in 1965 but only one round.  If there were still undefeated teams after that round they were declared co state champions.  There were no regional playoff games from 1952 to 1965 so no team had any opportunity to compete for even mythical state championships then.  That leaves great teams of the era (Narrows, Gate City, Appalachia) on the outside looking in.  Narrows was undefeated from 1961 through 1963 (9-0) all three years beating larger schools at Christiansburg, Blacksburg, Radford and all across the New River Valley and they never got to play in a playoff game.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

2 minutes ago, goose111874 said:

I just meant Appy playing against schools at their own level.  Teams like Hampton and other No. Va. schools would have been too tough for anyone in our area but it would've been fun to see Clark against that competition.

True.  The reclassification of 1970 was a tremendous boost in leveling the playing field while offering everyone a path to a state championship that still had real meaning and cachet.  For that reason, I think the discussion ought to be framed in terms of "best since 1970," because there are easily defined metrics to support specific arguments.

And under those terms, I'd still offer Appalachia, Gate City, and Powell Valley (in no particular order) as the three most consistently successful SW Virginia teams during their existence in what we might then define as the "modern era."

Graham, Giles, Radford, and Pulaski County definitely warrant mention in the discussion as well.  Richlands, Abingdon, Narrows, George Wythe, and Tazewell also have strong arguments to make for specific runs within the era.

[Jason 299]

33 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

 

Not to mention, in one of GCs state titles, 97, they would've been the third best LPD team. Lost to both PV and AHS. 

That was a very good year for this area. Lee High made it to the D4 semis that year. 

[RichlandsAlum 678]

2 minutes ago, Bluefield researcher said:

The last Regional game that I have seen was the 1951 game.  From then until 1965 there were none and then in 1965-1969 they at the lower levels they were only half state championships.  The AAA schools started playing playoff games in 1965 but only one round.  If there were still undefeated teams after that round they were declared co state champions.  There were no regional playoff games from 1952 to 1965 so no team had any opportunity to compete for even mythical state championships then.  Then leaves great teams of the era (Narrows, Gate City, Appalachia) on the outside looking in.  Narrows was undefeated from 1961 through 1963 (9-0) all three years beating larger schools at Christiansburg, Blacksburg, Radford and all across the New River Valley and they never got to play in a playoff game.

Good point.  I had in mind the fact that Bedford claimed a state championship by beating another regional champion, but upon further inspection that was in 1940.  There was another instance in which another regional (or half state) champion refused to play the Otters in a year when they won their district title.

I'm a bit perplexed as to why the situation from 1952 to 1965 (and even 1965 to 1969) was tolerated by fans, coaches, and the media.  But I suppose it is similar to the manner in which college football functioned prior to the current playoff system.

[Bluefield researcher 1,195]

Just now, RichlandsAlum said:

Good point.  I had in mind the fact that Bedford claimed a state championship by beating another regional champion, but upon further inspection that was in 1940.  There was another instance in which another regional (or half state) champion refused to play the Otters in a year when they won their district title.

I'm a bit perplexed as to why the situation from 1952 to 1965 (and even 1965 to 1969) was tolerated by fans, coaches, and the media.  But I suppose it is similar to the manner in which college football functioned prior to the current playoff system.

M-O-N-E-Y.  After WWII the Thanksgiving Day rivalries in the Richmond area and Tidewater areas brought huge dollars.  It was normal for the Thanksgiving Day crowds for Granby - Maury games to attract 25,000 fans at Foreman Field in Norfolk.  Newport News-Hampton drew between 10,000 to 20,000 each year.  The same is true for the Thomas Jefferson - John Marshall game in Richmond.  In 1968 the still segregated schools of Richmond, Maggie Walker and Armstrong, drew 29,000 at Richmond's City Stadium for their Thanksgiving Day game. The same is true for Washington-Lee of Arlington and GW Alexandria.  Now after integration most white people moved to the suburbs and left the inner city schools and those games lost their appeal to many. By 1965 the Maury - Granby attendance was less than 5,000.  This is when the prospect of playoff games became more appealing but it still had the problem that most big schools didn't want to give up their Thanksgiving Day games in lieu of playoff games hence only one round at first in early December. Maggie Walker finished undefeated one year in the early 70's but played their Thanksgiving Day game with Armstrong instead of going to the playoffs. They were actually disqualified from the playoffs because the rules stated that the regular season games had to be finished before a certain date and Maggie Walker and Armstrong continued to play on Thanksgiving knowing it disqualified them from the playoffs.

[BigWinners 1,643]

16 minutes ago, Jason said:

That was a very good year for this area. Lee High made it to the D4 semis that year. 

I didn't realize that, that's really cool. So in 97, we had D1, D2 and AA D1 champs, and D4 semifinalist in a 60 mile radius. And the smallest school was the second best! 

[Jason 299]

4 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

I didn't realize that, that's really cool. So in 97, we had D1, D2 and AA D1 champs, and D4 semifinalist in a 60 mile radius. And the smallest school was the second best! 

Sure did. The smallest school would have gave D4 fits and maybe could have won it. 

[Jason 299]

8 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

I didn't realize that, that's really cool. So in 97, we had D1, D2 and AA D1 champs, and D4 semifinalist in a 60 mile radius. And the smallest school was the second best! 

http://cougarfootball.net/vhsl_playoffs/1997.htm

[TTownTigers 82]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

That was a very good year for this area. Lee High made it to the D4 semis that year. 

My and my Buddy from Pennington Gap watched that Lee High game. Lee High outplayed Tabb and the officials. Lee High was jobbed in my opinion. They should have won that game, and competed against the officials and Tabb.

This thread is fun and there are tons of variables and its hard to say who has been the best, since 1970, since 1950, etc?  I still think much is to be said for playing up. The last 6 titles for PV as one poster mentioned, GC was 1-5. If Graham is single A, Graham gets 1 of those 6 titles as well, at least 1. No question, PV with a great run, but in my opinion, 6 titles would be no more than 4, and that's the point I am making for GC ahead of PV, not just because GC was playing up, but Graham was playing up, so PV avoided both schools come playoff time which without question, helped PV. There is no way in the world anyone can convince me that of all those state titles, if Graham and GC were playing where they should have been (at PVs class) PV today would have 2 less titles and that's being generous, maybe 3-4 more. Only my opinion. Is there anyway to tell? Nope.

GC/Shoemakers Record Against Powell Valley was 26-17-1 with a .602 winning %.

GC/Shoemakers Record Against Graham has been 20-15 and a much closer series here with only a .572 winning %.

GC/Shoemakers Record Against Appalachia was 24-20-1, an even tighter series and a winning % of only .544.

The numbers above are from Bluefield Researchers Thread and his numbers.  The above is another supporting reason why I put GC first in this discussion and Appalachia 2nd.  I still can't figure out how Appalachia got all those wins in its history, not just against GC, but just wins overalls and state titles with the enrollment numbers they have had.  One could have made the argument that they should have been like Council or Whitewood and simply should have not had a football team with their numbers.  It still blows me away how much talent they put on the field and how competitive they were. I have PV still third because of the volume of state titles, but again, if Gate City and Graham are playing in PVs classification since 1970 as they should have been, Powell Valleys state titles are cut by a third in my opinion. PV's accomplishments are still incredible, and one can easily make the case for them being the best program historically in SWVA.  I would disagree, but definitely respect that opinion because it's certainly a valid one.  Rings are rings and PV demolished its competition more times than not.  One can certainly make the case for the Vikings and I respect that.  There is just no way to tell, other than reaching the conclusion that PV, Appy, GC, Graham, and Giles have been very, very good for a long, long time.  Of course, no more Appy and PV, it's Union's turn to carry the torch.

[1inStripes 932]

1 hour ago, Jason said:

Sure did. The smallest school would have gave D4 fits and maybe could have won it. 

They all played each other that year if I am not mistaken.  PV 10-0 Appy 9-1 GC 8-2 and Lee 7-3 in the regular season if I am not mistaken.  You can figure out who lost to who.

[BigWinners 1,643]

1 hour ago, TTownTigers said:

My and my Buddy from Pennington Gap watched that Lee High game. Lee High outplayed Tabb and the officials. Lee High was jobbed in my opinion. They should have won that game, and competed against the officials and Tabb.

This thread is fun and there are tons of variables and its hard to say who has been the best, since 1970, since 1950, etc?  I still think much is to be said for playing up. The last 6 titles for PV as one poster mentioned, GC was 1-5. If Graham is single A, Graham gets 1 of those 6 titles as well, at least 1. No question, PV with a great run, but in my opinion, 6 titles would be no more than 4, and that's the point I am making for GC ahead of PV, not just because GC was playing up, but Graham was playing up, so PV avoided both schools come playoff time which without question, helped PV. There is no way in the world anyone can convince me that of all those state titles, if Graham and GC were playing where they should have been (at PVs class) PV today would have 2 less titles and that's being generous, maybe 3-4 more. Only my opinion. Is there anyway to tell? Nope.

GC/Shoemakers Record Against Powell Valley was 26-17-1 with a .602 winning %.

GC/Shoemakers Record Against Graham has been 20-15 and a much closer series here with only a .572 winning %.

GC/Shoemakers Record Against Appalachia was 24-20-1, an even tighter series and a winning % of only .544.

The numbers above are from Bluefield Researchers Thread and his numbers.  The above is another supporting reason why I put GC first in this discussion and Appalachia 2nd.  I still can't figure out how Appalachia got all those wins in its history, not just against GC, but just wins overalls and state titles with the enrollment numbers they have had.  One could have made the argument that they should have been like Council or Whitewood and simply should have not had a football team with their numbers.  It still blows me away how much talent they put on the field and how competitive they were. I have PV still third because of the volume of state titles, but again, if Gate City and Graham are playing in PVs classification since 1970 as they should have been, Powell Valleys state titles are cut by a third in my opinion. PV's accomplishments are still incredible, and one can easily make the case for them being the best program historically in SWVA.  I would disagree, but definitely respect that opinion because it's certainly a valid one.  Rings are rings and PV demolished its competition more times than not.  One can certainly make the case for the Vikings and I respect that.  There is just no way to tell, other than reaching the conclusion that PV, Appy, GC, Graham, and Giles have been very, very good for a long, long time.  Of course, no more Appy and PV, it's Union's turn to carry the torch.

 

What years would Graham have beaten PV? Not 97-98 for sure, that was the 28 game winning streak. I doubt 94-95 either. That leaves the early 90s titles, I don't know much of Graham during that time, but those PV teams were very very good.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

5 hours ago, 1inStripes said:

I would say that is probably inaccurate because I was always told Coach Carlock would not schedule anyone below the division he was playing in.    It was  one of the bad things about Gate City dropping to A in the early 00s because that ended the GC/Graham series if my memory is correct. 

100% correct.  Carlock would NEVER play down, regardless of strength of opponent.

[Jason 299]

1 hour ago, TTownTigers said:

My and my Buddy from Pennington Gap watched that Lee High game. Lee High outplayed Tabb and the officials. Lee High was jobbed in my opinion. They should have won that game, and competed against the officials and Tabb.

Lee played Heritage in the 97 semis. I think you are talking about when Lee lost to Tabb 21-14 in the 1990 Championship game. 

[BigWinners 1,643]

2 hours ago, UVAObserver said:

100% correct.  Carlock would NEVER play down, regardless of strength of opponent.

 

Was that just personal preference? I know sometimes it can be hard for SWVA teams, esp those as good as Graham, to find OOC opponents. 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

7 hours ago, BigWinners said:

 

Was that just personal preference? I know sometimes it can be hard for SWVA teams, esp those as good as Graham, to find OOC opponents. 

I think so.  Ideally, that mindset would encourage Graham to test itself against stronger teams in 2A-6A.  However, as good as GC/PV were, he had all the competition he needed at home.  I think he scheduled to get the most ratings points he could, honestly.  Graham missed the playoffs 1 time from 1989 until his death (and that 1 time was a Magna Vista screw job to help a rival opponent sneak in).

[trumpet1988 289]

Powell Valley won their first state championship in 1982 with James Bolling as head coach. Phil Robbins came in 1983. From 1983 through the last season at PV in 2010, PV only missed the playoffs twice. Those seasons were 1984 (8-2) and 1991 (5-5). Powell Valley was n 8 state championships from 1982-1998. There were seasons from 1982 until the final season where they were capable of winning state but didn't. 1983, went 10-0 and lost in Class A state semifinals to a great Parry McCluer team. 1986, 10-0 but upset by a Garden team in the first round that didn't seem too bad a team anyway. 1996, went 7-3, lost in D2 semifinals to an excellent Giles team in a game that I heard came down to 4th quarter. 2001, 8-2, lost to a stellar GC team in second round who just returned to the LPD. 2004, 9-1, lost the championship game to Manassas Park in a game that was truly decided for sure in the last couple of minutes on an interception. 

 

PV had a stellar run. Appy did too. 

[SXSW 557]

20 hours ago, sup_rbeast said:

Crack kills...lay off the pipe.

Really Dude???....That is the typical way now days, if someone doesn't agree with you, you call them names on social media or a message board..My opinion is mine and I will not bow down at the alter of Powell Valley because my opinion is different from yours. I even put PV on the Mount Rushmore of All-time programs in Southwest Va. but since I didn't list them first is that what offended you?