Area playoff records

[sup_rbeast 296]

42 minutes ago, Great City said:

I am definitely not saying PV could not have won those titles without the Jones brothers. Just saying that they certainly did not hurt. :)

Not really sure you can say, with a straight face, that the RB position was "plug and play at PV". I quickly googled the Jones brothers. Looks like Thomas held (maybe still holds) the records for most rushing yards in a season, was UVA's all-time leading rusher, and had the 4th highest rushing total in ACC history. Julius was no slouch either. He held the single game rushing record (262 yards) at ND, and held school records for KO return yards, and all-purpose yards. Did not even mention their NFL careers. Not sure how many other backs at PV went on to have that success.

Did not say their playoff competition was "soft". Just said that it was "softer" than if they had played in a higher classification. Only made that comment because someone that posted before me talked about it. I also said........."Again...........not taking anything away from PV. They competed in their correct classification, and earned their titles."

Does anyone know the Jones brother's stats for their championship games?

Having success at a high school level and going on to have success at another level are two different things.  Sure, having the Jones's didn't hurt, but having the Forty Jacksons, Keith Halls, and Greg Bishops didn't hurt either.  You can take the focal point of any team away and diminish the ability of that team...and coming out of PV's I Formation, the tailback was that focal point.  I spend a lot of time in Gate City, and it's always amusing to me how the folks there want to attribute PV's success to 2 players.  News Flash: those guys were good, but even without them PV would've had at least 7 if not all 8 of the titles they won.  Try this...go back to all of GC's State Champions and subtract the best player, then tell me how many they would've won.  Or, do that for any team...that shoe is one size fits all.

[Great City 210]

"Having success at a high school level and going on to have success at another level are two different things."

Completely agree with you here. There are many, many players who have been great high school football players. A small percentage of them translate those abilities to the D1 level. An even smaller percentage can transition to the NFL and have success. Those players are ultra-rare. High school teams are very fortunate to have players like that. Those are the type of players who can almost single-handedly carry teams to championships.

Jake Housewright almost carried us one year. Subtract him from that team and we would not have been nearly as good. Would not have won the games we won. Would be laughable of me to say we pretty much just plug and play kids at RB and LB. Special players come along rarely. To say they do not greatly influence the team's success just does not make sense.

You seem to be saying that the Jones brothers were just run of the mill RBs at PV, and nothing special. Maybe I am not understanding. If so, I apologize.

I am going to say this again......not taking anything away from PV. They earned their titles. They may have won the same amount of titles without the Jones brothers. Not debating that.

Going back to my original point.......I was talking about the differences between schools with an average enrollment of 550 and schools with an average enrollment of 850....I believe that a great player's impact is more pronounced at a smaller school than it is at a larger school. I could be wrong. Happens a lot. I referenced the Jones brothers and wondered aloud....OK....I typed it......how other's teams' fortunes would have been different if they had 2 NFL caliber RBs on their rosters.  

[BigWinners 1,642]

6 hours ago, Great City said:

"PV would play schools with 400-700 enrollment numbers, GC played schools with enrollments around 700-1000 while at that time having a larger enrollment. The difference isn't that dramatic."

Don't know if I would say that PV faced "much" softer competition in the playoffs, but without a doubt it was softer. Not sure how that can be argued. Not taking anything away from PV. They had a great program.

I would say that the difference between schools with 400-700 kids, and schools with 700-1000 kids is substantial. If you average those numbers, you get a group of schools with 550 kids, and a group of schools with 850 kids.....a difference of 300 kids. Assuming 50:50 males to females, you have 150 additional males that could be on a sports team. Gives all of your teams more kids, gives you back ups to help you deal with injuries, gives you people to practice against, etc... 

IMHO....the biggest difference in those two groups of schools, is that one kid has a much greater impact at a smaller school than he/she would at a larger school.

Take the Jones brothers from PV. I BELIEVE PV won 4 state championships while having an NFL-caliber running back in the backfield. That is half of their total championships. If you remove them from those teams, does PV still win the championship? Maybe they do, but without a doubt it would have been harder. Wonder how many championships Clintwood would have if they would of had the Jones brothers? How about Appalachia?

They also would have made a huge difference in AA. Can you imagine GC, Richlands, Graham having 8 years of the Jones brothers?

Granted the Jones brothers are an extreme example. Any school in VA would have benefited from having them on the team. The effect is the same for not as gifted athletes. Just using the Jones brothers as an example.

Again...........not taking anything away from PV. They competed in their correct classification, and earned their titles.

Would GC have won in 97 without Housewright? Without Spivey later on? 

That's not a fair statement to make, each team relies on their best. I don't see how punishing a team for it's best players makes sense. 

It is for sure a gap when talking about an extra 200-300 kids. But, on an even playing field so to speak, if PV had the same numbers as those schools, I can't imagine them not being at least as successful. I responded to somone saying PV played MUCH softer competition which I viewed as a pretty big overstatement. 

[BigWinners 1,642]

17 minutes ago, Great City said:

"Having success at a high school level and going on to have success at another level are two different things."

Completely agree with you here. There are many, many players who have been great high school football players. A small percentage of them translate those abilities to the D1 level. An even smaller percentage can transition to the NFL and have success. Those players are ultra-rare. High school teams are very fortunate to have players like that. Those are the type of players who can almost single-handedly carry teams to championships.

Jake Housewright almost carried us one year. Subtract him from that team and we would not have been nearly as good. Would not have won the games we won. Would be laughable of me to say we pretty much just plug and play kids at RB and LB. Special players come along rarely. To say they do not greatly influence the team's success just does not make sense.

You seem to be saying that the Jones brothers were just run of the mill RBs at PV, and nothing special. Maybe I am not understanding. If so, I apologize.

I am going to say this again......not taking anything away from PV. They earned their titles. They may have won the same amount of titles without the Jones brothers. Not debating that.

Going back to my original point.......I was talking about the differences between schools with an average enrollment of 550 and schools with an average enrollment of 850....I believe that a great player's impact is more pronounced at a smaller school than it is at a larger school. I could be wrong. Happens a lot. I referenced the Jones brothers and wondered aloud....OK....I typed it......how other's teams' fortunes would have been different if they had 2 NFL caliber RBs on their rosters.  

How many teams fortunes change if you add Jake Housewright? Chad Beasley? 

But SB is being silly, the Jones bros were as far from plug in play as possible. Possibly the most gifted players in SWVA, or LPD, history. 

[redtiger 1,740]

Proud of my Tigers for their position

45 playoff games     19 wins     26 losses     .422 win percentage

For a school that didn't have near the talent of the others on the list and played in D2 almost the entire time while only being marginally larger than Appalachia and significantly smaller than PV (Haysi hovered around 350 students, Appalachia 300 and PV 550). Haysi never had a player play D1 football and few that played college ball at all while the other schools in their success range had significant advantages in raw talent.

[sup_rbeast 296]

1 hour ago, Great City said:

You seem to be saying that the Jones brothers were just run of the mill RBs at PV, and nothing special. Maybe I am not understanding. If so, I apologize.  

That’s not what I’m saying at all. What I’m saying is in both instances there were backs on the roster behind them more than capable of carrying the load and starting for most teams in the area. Not just run of the mill backs...talented backs as good as anyone else had, just not on the level of the Jonses. The Jones brothers and their talents were the cherry on top.

[sup_rbeast 296]

48 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

How many teams fortunes change if you add Jake Housewright? Chad Beasley? 

But SB is being silly, the Jones bros were as far from plug in play as possible. Possibly the most gifted players in SWVA, or LPD, history. 

I didn’t say the Jonses were plug and play...I said the tailback position in PV’s I Formation was plug and play, which it was. Name one back who dotted that I as a starter who didn’t gain at least 1,000 yards from 1983 until they changed to the spread. That’s my point.

[BigWinners 1,642]

1 hour ago, sup_rbeast said:

I didn’t say the Jonses were plug and play...I said the tailback position in PV’s I Formation was plug and play, which it was. Name one back who dotted that I as a starter who didn’t gain at least 1,000 yards from 1983 until they changed to the spread. That’s my point.

The position was a strong position sure, but TJ and JJ were so far ahead of what PV or anyone else had that they far eclipsed what anyone else was able to do at PV.

[sup_rbeast 296]

1 hour ago, BigWinners said:

The position was a strong position sure, but TJ and JJ were so far ahead of what PV or anyone else had that they far eclipsed what anyone else was able to do at PV.

I never said they weren’t. All I said was that with or without them, PV had the athletes to win the titles they won...and that’s the truth. The teams wouldn’t have had a stellar athlete, but they had enough to get it done. No doubt the Jonses made it easier, but that’s not the debate. 

[BigWinners 1,642]

1 hour ago, sup_rbeast said:

I never said they weren’t. All I said was that with or without them, PV had the athletes to win the titles they won...and that’s the truth. The teams wouldn’t have had a stellar athlete, but they had enough to get it done. No doubt the Jonses made it easier, but that’s not the debate. 

 

That's a pure speculative point. Those teams were very good, but they weren't so dominant as to where you could take away the best player and assume they'd be as dominant. 

 

[sup_rbeast 296]

5 hours ago, BigWinners said:

 

That's a pure speculative point. Those teams were very good, but they weren't so dominant as to where you could take away the best player and assume they'd be as dominant. 

 

This whole debate is pure speculation...that’s the point. We know what happened, and either way you look at it, no one can say for sure what would’ve happened without this player or that player. But, historical numbers across 20 years of running that offense show that there would have been a competent threat at that position. That wasn’t the hardest spot to fill in that offense, the QB spot was. 

[Great City 210]

Speculation is so much fun. :)

I am not a "numbers" person, so all of this might not be accurate. All numbers are rounded.

I looked up PV's record from 1992-1998. Believe that is when the Joneses were at PV. During that time PV was 82-12. They averaged 12 wins and 2 loses per season, with a winning percentage of 87%. 4 state championships. PV won 57% of the state championships possible during the Jones Era. Damn impressive.

From 1999 until the school closed after the 2010 season, PV was 91-50. They averaged 8 wins and 4 loses per season, with a winning percentage of 65%. No state championships. For a championship rate of 0%.

The numbers across 19 years say that the Joneses helped (obviously there were others on the teams) PV win, on average, 4 additional games per year. PV won state championships more than half of the time when there was Jones in the backfield. After the Joneses left, PV has not won a state championship, and has only appeared in one championship game.

Again..........real quickly looked up some numbers. Could be some errors. Plus, I have got to do some real work today and do not have time to look deeper into the numbers.

Again II......not taking anything away from PV. Great teams. Great program.

[Dookthecook 56]

16 hours ago, BigWinners said:

How many teams fortunes change if you add Jake Housewright? Chad Beasley? 

But SB is being silly, the Jones bros were as far from plug in play as possible. Possibly the most gifted players in SWVA, or LPD, history. 

Sampson was a Jim dandy baller n his'n day

[sixcat 2,918]

I think the fortunes of every SWVA football team would have changed by having Jim "Dandy"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

[sup_rbeast 296]

2 hours ago, Great City said:

Speculation is so much fun. :)

I am not a "numbers" person, so all of this might not be accurate. All numbers are rounded.

I looked up PV's record from 1992-1998. Believe that is when the Joneses were at PV. During that time PV was 82-12. They averaged 12 wins and 2 loses per season, with a winning percentage of 87%. 4 state championships. PV won 57% of the state championships possible during the Jones Era. Damn impressive.

From 1999 until the school closed after the 2010 season, PV was 91-50. They averaged 8 wins and 4 loses per season, with a winning percentage of 65%. No state championships. For a championship rate of 0%.

The numbers across 19 years say that the Joneses helped (obviously there were others on the teams) PV win, on average, 4 additional games per year. PV won state championships more than half of the time when there was Jones in the backfield. After the Joneses left, PV has not won a state championship, and has only appeared in one championship game.

Again..........real quickly looked up some numbers. Could be some errors. Plus, I have got to do some real work today and do not have time to look deeper into the numbers.

Again II......not taking anything away from PV. Great teams. Great program.

Beginning with the year 2000, the PV program went into a slow decline.  Run those same numbers from 1982-1991, and you get a different story. From 1982-1991 PV was 99-19-1 with 4 titles. If you get selective and leave out 1991 which was a total rebuilding year and a bridge between the 80's and 90's powerhouse teams, then you have a 94-14-1 record with 4 titles.  Any way you want to manipulate the data, you are going to get very similar results for each decade. (1982-1991 - 4 Titles, 1992-2001 - 4 Titles). It don't take much to see where the decline started...don't take much to see where it all began either. But, pretty much, the rise of PV football's "golden age" began in 1982 and ended around 1999-2000...with a pretty solid team in 2004, as well.  Actually, they had some solid teams sprinkled in from the school's opening until it closed...just a solid program.  But, one with a 17 year run of averaging a state title every other year mixed in for good measure (181-31-1 combined record from 1982-1998...roughly an average record of 11-2 yearly) So, as you can see, those average numbers are virtually the same as the numbers you came up with from the Jones era.

Here's a link with it all from 1959 until 1998 in one place...with much more info than just records and scores. Here you also get an overview of each season along with stand out players, some stats etc.

http://pvvikings1.tripod.com/pvhist.html

(Records from 1999 until the school's close can be found on VHSL Reference.)

[Bluefield researcher 1,195]

With only the Chilhowie game to go I went ahead and updated this thread.