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Abingdon 3A


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14 hours ago, Bluefield researcher said:

Allowing Abingdon to get 3A points for beating 2A teams 

Beginning by admitting my own ignorance....  but is that actually happening?  I thought the ratings were calibrated in some manner corresponding to classification (whereby you get greater benefit by beating schools in higher classification).  

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We would get more points playing 3a schools . But wins and losses affects that as well. 

6 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

Beginning by admitting my own ignorance....  but is that actually happening?  I thought the ratings were calibrated in some manner corresponding to classification (whereby you get greater benefit by beating schools in higher classification).  

We would get more points playing a 3a school with same record and opponent record as a 2a school. That's my understanding 

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Just now, Bluefield researcher said:

My understanding is that Abingdon (and anyone else too) that is required to play down because of district foes gets 3A points for those district games.

The existence of that kind of policy would be news to me.  And if there were such a thing, it's hard to see how Abingdon could be allowed to benefit from it as there is no real argument for them being "required" to play down.

Looking at the current VHSL rankings, Abingdon and Lord Botetourt have identifical records.  But LB is outpointing them by a healthy margin (including bonus points).  Guessing that margin is mainly due to the fact that Abingdon is playing teams in lower classification than Bottie.

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9 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

Beginning by admitting my own ignorance....  but is that actually happening?  I thought the ratings were calibrated in some manner corresponding to classification (whereby you get greater benefit by beating schools in higher classification).  

 

1 minute ago, fatherfalcon said:

We would get more points playing 3a schools . But wins and losses affects that as well. 

We would get more points playing a 3a school with same record and opponent record as a 2a school. That's my understanding 

 

Just now, Bluefield researcher said:

My understanding is that Abingdon (and anyone else too) that is required to play down because of district foes gets 3A points for those district games.

If you play a school in a higher classification, you get the base points equivalent of THAT school's Class.....6A-26, 5A-24, 4A-22, 3A-20, 2A-18, 1A-16. If you play a school in a smaller class, you get the equivalent of YOUR classification. Does not matter if they are in your district or not anymore.

Class 3A Northside received 16 base points for defeated Galax plus 4 bonus points to make up the class difference in addition to the 2 pts for each of Galax's wins.

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Copied from VHSL Helper's ratings page.....

         2017/18 VHSL Football Ratings Point scale
            (for games vs. public schools)


opponent Class :  6A    5A    4A    3A    2A    1A
                  --    --    --    --    --    --
if you win  :     26    24    22    20    18    16
if you lose :     14    12    10     8     6     4

              Rider points...
2 for each game won by a team you beat
1 for each game won by a team you lost to
   (this can also be stated as 1 per win by any opponent, 
         and 1 more per win by a team you beat)

Additional bonus points are given for playing a smaller school...
    2 points per Class difference 
(i.e. A 4A school that plays a 2A school gets 4 additional "gimme" points
 The VHSL's computer program adds these into the rider points column;
 I put them in the base points column, which is why our numbers don't match.)
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1 minute ago, Union_Fan said:

 

 

If you play a school in a higher classification, you get the base points equivalent of THAT school's Class.....6A-26, 5A-24, 4A-22, 3A-20, 2A-18, 1A-16. If you play a school in a smaller class, you get the equivalent of YOUR classification. Does not matter if they are in your district or not anymore.

Class 3A Northside received 16 base points for defeated Galax plus 4 bonus points to make up the class difference in addition to the 2 pts for each of Galax's wins.

Thanks, Union_Fan.  That makes sense.

So the difference between LB and Abingdon is presumably a result of LB playing 4A schools and gaining the associated benefits.

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Just now, Bluefield researcher said:

So yes Abingdon is getting 3A points for beating 2A teams.

Yep.  I see it now.  And that is a huge integrity gap within the ratings methodology.  I would guess that it arose as a scheduling argument (to eliminate the statistical "penalty" associated with playing teams in lower classifications).  But that's another really good reason for the VHSL to revisit classification overall, IMO.  Seems like a 4 class system (or 5 at most) would work if districts were comprised completely of teams within the same classification.

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3 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

Thanks, Union_Fan.  That makes sense.

So the difference between LB and Abingdon is presumably a result of LB playing 4A schools and gaining the associated benefits.

Harrisonburg is 5A, Blacksburg 4A. Bluefield is 2A but they get 3A points for beating them plus 16 more for Bluefield's 8 other wins.

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2 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

Thanks, Union_Fan.  That makes sense.

So the difference between LB and Abingdon is presumably a result of LB playing 4A schools and gaining the associated benefits.

Just looking at the VHSL weekly ratings(last week). LB has 81 bonus points. Abingdon has 56. If you take away the classification points that are in that column, then LB has 33 more bonus points than Abingdon. That means the teams that LB has played have the equivalent of 16.5 more wins than the teams Abingdon has played. Opponent wins mean more than anything. Letcher Co went 0-10 last year. This year they went 5-5 giving Union 10 more bonus points than last year just for one team. You never know how a team will perform when you put them on the schedule.

Defeating an 0-10 6A team(26 base pts, no bonus pts) would be equivalent to a 4-6 1A school (16 base points, 2 Class points, 8 bonus pts) to a 2A team. 26 points each.

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maybe simplify? points for classification match in power points; 1a =1, 2a = 2 , and so on through 6a. still 2 points for each win and 1 point on losses. would change some scheduling I bet. play up and get the benefits, play down and run the risk of low totals. no bonus or extra for playing down. 

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1 minute ago, Smashmouth said:

maybe simplify? points for classification match in power points; 1a =1, 2a = 2 , and so on through 6a. still 2 points for each win and 1 point on losses. would change some scheduling I bet. play up and get the benefits, play down and run the risk of low totals. no bonus or extra for playing down. 

How can a team play up if no school will play down?

That's the purpose of the class points. To give the larger school an incentive to play down. No incentive, no playing down, thus smaller schools can't play up.

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29 minutes ago, Union_Fan said:

How can a team play up if no school will play down?

That's the purpose of the class points. To give the larger school an incentive to play down. No incentive, no playing down, thus smaller schools can't play up.

In WV teams play up and down all the time. Princeton does not get AAA points if they beat Bluefield, they get AA points. They do get a bonus point for every game Bluefield wins in AA or higher but they get nothing if they beat Bluefield and Bluefield then beats Montcalm (nor should they). Teams will play up or down (money is often the reason) they just have to be more selective.

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2 hours ago, Bluefield researcher said:

In WV teams play up and down all the time. Princeton does not get AAA points if they beat Bluefield, they get AA points. They do get a bonus point for every game Bluefield wins in AA or higher but they get nothing if they beat Bluefield and Bluefield then beats Montcalm (nor should they). Teams will play up or down (money is often the reason) they just have to be more selective.

Which system do you think more accurately produces the final rankings? VA vs WV 

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4 minutes ago, Union_Fan said:

Which system do you think more accurately produces the final rankings? VA vs WV 

To me it is a wash.  Va gives you the same points for playing below your class as in your class which is not good. VA also gives too many points to a team for losing. However they do consider and give weight to who you lose to. WV does not and that is a big negative for WV.  In WV losing to the best team in the state in the same as losing to the worst. At least in Va they give you some credit for who you lose to. I have an idea for a system but it involves subtracting various levels of points for losses but it would never fly because below zero ratings would not fit in our "Everybody gets a trophy" world.

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This is great I'm definitely a Union homer. But this is a pure laughing matter Did Appalachia, Norton or Pound who were Division 1 back in the day complain about Powell Valley Coeburn and Clintwood being in the LPD while being Dividion 2 Nope just went out there and played. So this argument is a mute point. Yes Union had 7 turnovers Friday nite but last time I checked abingdon played in the same conditions quit crying about it. We got whooped by a better team it shows we have a lackluster weight program plus our lack of depth and most importantly our will to WIN. 

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You can argue logistics about the enrollment forever and not change each other's minds.  I will say that the biggest advantage of Abingdon playing in the local 2A district is $$$ for all the schools programs.  Abingdon travels as well as any other team in southwest Virginia.  The football programs are the cash cow for each schools booster's and athletic funds.  In the past, the main rivalries for Abingdon were with Richlands, Battle and VA High.  Now, in only a couple seasons, we have seen new rivalries come out.  The Ridgeview home game had the biggest overall attendance of the season at Abingdon.  The Union game at Big Stone had a very sizable crowd on both sides even though it was nasty and being televised which would tempt many to stay home and watch.  When 3A schools come to Abingdon, they seldom bring any fans with them.  That is one of the great things about small town football, when you have a rivalry game that is where everyone wants to be.

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