Richlands, moving forward

[S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE 239]

Spread creates better angles and more room,  just as wider splits do so formation/ scheme may take a back seat to personnel and their particular skill set.

[Ryan4VT 4,550]

1 hour ago, redtiger said:

Thats where you're wrong, and Union just proved it.  Lets say were trying to run in the A gaps, in the spread you're running Inside Zone against 4 guys (typically 2 DTs and 2 LBs) at the high school level, in the T you're running FB Dive against the same 4 guys. Plus your math is wrong; 5 OL + 2 TEs + 2 backs + 1 QB = 10 but the defense has to respect the pass and theyre not gonna put more than 9 in the box, if they go 10 then play action is there all day. 

I get the concept of relying on fewer blocks to gain yards but what you lose is deception, its hard to be sure who has the ball when Union is running Dive/Belly all night, and unsure linebackers play flat footed and slow. 

Spread offense may be fun to watch but you know whats not fun to watch? An offense that only scores 3 points. 

Plus dont forget 2 TE, 2 Back, shotgun ...

You’re implying that Union shut Richlands down. Which they didn’t. The Blues has more yards and got inside Union’s 25 4 times and came away with 3 points. We played for FG’s instead of TD’s. That’s why we only scored 3. 

[Tru Blue 72 423]

Really hate to get into the fray, but why not, opinions are what they are, and I (along with everyone) have one, sometimes good, sometimes not so good.  The spread is the best offense if you have the personal to run it, if not the "T" or "Wing T", the "Pro Set" or any other running formation will work better, (if you have the personal).  Richlands has a mixture of personal, different than from past teams.  One of the problems with Richlands running the spread this year is lack of speed, and receivers not getting open.  I think the QB is a good athlete, but not a good enough passer for the spread.  Now as far as the run game, if Richlands chooses to go that way, they have a couple of good backs to go along with the QB as a runner, but when there is no threat to pass, and no misdirection in the backfield, the defense can stack the box all night long, and to be honest, Richlands has an experience line at running the spread and pass blocking, but no so good at run blocking.  To be a great run blocking team, we all know that you have to control the line backers, and most linemen who are tried and true pass blockers, are not experienced at controlling line backers. Back in the day (way back) when I played as a lineman, we were taught to move the defensive lineman, go take out the line backer.  Not sure Richlands pass blocking line has experience doing this, so with the personal they are between a spread offense and a run offense. I think as the year goes along, they will improve at both, but in my opinion this is were they are now.

Does this mean we quit being fans? NO! we get behind them through this rough period and let them know we are there.  We all know that Richlands will make the playoffs and be a dangerous team by going through this, after all this is "The Blues" and Mance we're talking about!! GO BIG BLUE"

I want to take a minute and thank all of you guys for having this board, and all those who post here, it makes football season even better.

[Tiger 2000 73]

Most everybody is making good points on this topic.   It’s not only lack of speed. It’s lack of athleticism. Some of the kids have some speed but maybe don’t necessarily use it to make them a better football player.  No matter what offense they run.  They have to be able to be athletic and tough.  Union would have loved to had Richlands total yards the first half.   However , there style of play eventually wore down the blues.  Richlands puts  a lot of stress on defenses by lining up in the spread. But if they don’t start making plays outside of the one or 2 players that have so far nobody is going to honor the outside guys.   When Webb is at w/r take a look at the coverage. The coaches probably see that and know they have a really good matchup somewhere else. But so far no consistency from them to make a play.  By the third quarter teams have made adjustments.  The blues will get it figured out hopefully.  I think graham and ridgeview are  at the top right now.  Then union , tazewell, gate city and Richlands is somewhere in that mix.  Seeds 3 through 6 should all be competitive .  

[BigWinners 1,642]

1 hour ago, Ryan4VT said:

You’re implying that Union shut Richlands down. Which they didn’t. The Blues has more yards and got inside Union’s 25 4 times and came away with 3 points. We played for FG’s instead of TD’s. That’s why we only scored 3. 

 

Thats a little misleading, one of those was off a blocked punt, and as the Union offense mustered nothing in the first half, I believe Richlands started on the Union side of the field every time in the first half.

[BigWinners 1,642]

But it is simple math, if you can run against a 7 or 8 man box as opposed to a 9 or ten man box, you'll have more room just on principle before taking into account the talent on the OL, opposing defensive talent, runners, etc.. 

[Jags52 344]

3 hours ago, Union_Fan said:

I won't get into the debate of which formation is better because at the HS level, your personnel should really dictate that. And a good coach will adapt their offense to best take advantage of their players' skill set. Round peg, round hole concept. No one offense will work at every school. Richlands and Giles are perfect examples because they are on complete opposites of the spectrum. Giles has been running the single wing forever. Some years they're great, some years they're good and some years they're not. Offense is the same year in and year out. Only the players change. Everyone knows what they're running, but in the great years, nobody can stop them. 

I agree 100% De La Salle won 151 games in a row running the split back veer I promise you they didn’t change their offense after that first Mance is probably the winningest active coach in the area if he thinks Richlands should be in the spread I would stand by that as a fan base and not want to change everything after a 3 point game

[Jags52 344]

3 hours ago, redtiger said:

Thats where you're wrong, and Union just proved it.  Lets say were trying to run in the A gaps, in the spread you're running Inside Zone against 4 guys (typically 2 DTs and 2 LBs) at the high school level, in the T you're running FB Dive against the same 4 guys. Plus your math is wrong; 5 OL + 2 TEs + 2 backs + 1 QB = 10 but the defense has to respect the pass and theyre not gonna put more than 9 in the box, if they go 10 then play action is there all day. 

I get the concept of relying on fewer blocks to gain yards but what you lose is deception, its hard to be sure who has the ball when Union is running Dive/Belly all night, and unsure linebackers play flat footed and slow. 

Spread offense may be fun to watch but you know whats not fun to watch? An offense that only scores 3 points. 

Plus dont forget 2 TE, 2 Back, shotgun ...

How is the highlighted statement wrong sir? That is the point of the spread offense is to spread the D out.. 

As far as my math being wrong its not. Show me one team that has 2 high safeties and corners at 7 against a T back field with 2 TE’s because they are scared of getting beat deep on play action. Everyone is going to load that box up if they don’t thats not great coaching. 

Some teams have bad games against good teams it doesn’t mean you need to jump ship on an offense. They dropped 30+ on Gate City. What they are doing is working is fine. 

Putting the qb in shotgun does give you the zone read and what not back but there will still be 20 guys within 5 yards of the ball and 2 dudes out wide staring at each other eyes

[redtiger 1,740]

1 hour ago, Jags52 said:

How is the highlighted statement wrong sir? That is the point of the spread offense is to spread the D out.. 

As far as my math being wrong its not. Show me one team that has 2 high safeties and corners at 7 against a T back field with 2 TE’s because they are scared of getting beat deep on play action. Everyone is going to load that box up if they don’t thats not great coaching. 

Some teams have bad games against good teams it doesn’t mean you need to jump ship on an offense. They dropped 30+ on Gate City. What they are doing is working is fine. 

Putting the qb in shotgun does give you the zone read and what not back but there will still be 20 guys within 5 yards of the ball and 2 dudes out wide staring at each other eyes

Most teams will play 2 high Defensive Backs vs 3 back offense, thats 9 defenders vs 9 potential blockers the O has, if the D goes 10 in the box play action to the TEs.

Im not saying 4 wide shotgun doesn't have some serious advantages,  Mance has 199 wins with it, I played in a program that was using 3+ WRs way back in the 90s because that fit the talent available at Haysi. But 4 wide shotgun isnt superior to T, Wishbone, Wing T, or any other 3 back offense just because it looks cool and is fast paced. 

[redtiger 1,740]

4 hours ago, Ryan4VT said:

You’re implying that Union shut Richlands down. Which they didn’t. The Blues has more yards and got inside Union’s 25 4 times and came away with 3 points. We played for FG’s instead of TD’s. That’s why we only scored 3. 

Not at all, my comment was in response to "It is a lot easier to to run the football against a 5 or 6 man box that is just a fact. ". Thats not a fact. My statement about Union was just to give an example of how running the ball can easily be done with any offense,  even one on the opposite end of the spectrum from Richlands. 

[Ryan4VT 4,550]

12 minutes ago, redtiger said:

Not at all, my comment was in response to "It is a lot easier to to run the football against a 5 or 6 man box that is just a fact. ". Thats not a fact. My statement about Union was just to give an example of how running the ball can easily be done with any offense,  even one on the opposite end of the spectrum from Richlands. 

Ah, okay. I misjudged it then. Apologies! 

[tornado99 345]

This has been one of the most interesting threads. I am not an expert on the schematics (in fact, I am learning from your posts); however, I tend to lean toward keeping things simple when you have bigger, stronger, and slower personnel.  I tend to subscribe toward old school blue's, and redtiger's philosophy that sometimes you simply win by blowing your opponent off the ball. I think sometimes we outsmart ourselves by getting too fancy. Football is about blocking and tackling, and doesn't need to be overly complicated. One of the most impressive things I had seen during my youth was witnessing a G-men squad defeat a William Campbell team ('95?) while in a double tight wishbone and throwing only one short pass.

Anyway, great comments. 

[Union_Fan 2,154]

3 hours ago, Jags52 said:

I agree 100% De La Salle won 151 games in a row running the split back veer I promise you they didn’t change their offense after that first Mance is probably the winningest active coach in the area if he thinks Richlands should be in the spread I would stand by that as a fan base and not want to change everything after a 3 point game

And that's what you have to do. It's easy to coach from the stands. We don't always know what's gone on at practice all week or where a kid's head is at game time. We do need to trust that the coaching staff is doing the best job they can with the kids they have. Well, until they go 1-9 back to back. Then, we chase them out of town with torches and pitch forks! Lol

[Hokie1Pokie 350]

5 hours ago, Ryan4VT said:

You’re implying that Union shut Richlands down. Which they didn’t. The Blues has more yards and got inside Union’s 25 4 times and came away with 3 points. We played for FG’s instead of TD’s. That’s why we only scored 3. 

Ryan, I didn't see the game and admit that. I did listen to it. I still believe it goes back to a thread preseason where I critiqued Richlands offensive culture. I watched it with Appo and I watched it with T. Ashby and Poqouson. It's critical to have some kind of a run culture. I've seen it with Texas Tech and Oregon over the years. What I'm getting at is this......if you don't have a run oriented or at least an offense that can run it when it wants, the tell-tale signs occur in the red zone where the defensive backs do not have to cover as much field, and it makes it a bit easier to play pass defense, and often teams that aren't at least a little bit run oriented often end up settling for field goals. I know penalties and several other things can also cause issues inside the 20, but I've said this before and will say it again. Run the ball Richlands.

That 92 Richlands team was one of the absolutely LEAST athletic teams I've seen at Richlands. Some of the GC title teams weren't overly athletic when talking about their last two, but from tackle to tackle, they were vicious. Richlands needs a culture shift on offense. They have had the bigs and some strong dudes up front for years, and they got s kid now that should be getting 20-25 carries per game and is electric, yet they want to send him on a 15 and out route on first down which kills the drive. 

Only my take.

[CriticalNoise 182]

This thread got deep with some great points above my knowledge level, but all I know is Levi Forest missed more FGs against union than he will miss all year. In fact, he’s only made 1 outta 5 in the last 2 games against union (if memory serves right). I give major props to this guy. He is one heckuva kicker. I see VT recruiting him since Jordan Stout left (honaker guy)

[redtiger 1,740]

55 minutes ago, tornado99 said:

This has been one of the most interesting threads. I am not an expert on the schematics (in fact, I am learning from your posts); however, I tend to lean toward keeping things simple when you have bigger, stronger, and slower personnel.  I tend to subscribe toward old school blue's, and redtiger's philosophy that sometimes you simply win by blowing your opponent off the ball. I think sometimes we outsmart ourselves by getting too fancy. Football is about blocking and tackling, and doesn't need to be overly complicated. One of the most impressive things I had seen during my youth was witnessing a G-men squad defeat a William Campbell team ('95?) while in a double tight wishbone and throwing only one short pass.

Anyway, great comments. 

Doesn't even have to be blowing them off the ball, hit 'em in the hip hard and fast, get position and run quick hitting run plays. 

 

I never got to see the great Graham teams in person but I have on film; big, strong, and nasty up front with misdirection backfield action. A unique brand if football for sure. 

[tornado99 345]

29 minutes ago, Hokie1Pokie said:

Ryan, I didn't see the game and admit that. I did listen to it. I still believe it goes back to a thread preseason where I critiqued Richlands offensive culture. I watched it with Appo and I watched it with T. Ashby and Poqouson. It's critical to have some kind of a run culture. I've seen it with Texas Tech and Oregon over the years. What I'm getting at is this......if you don't have a run oriented or at least an offense that can run it when it wants, the tell-tale signs occur in the red zone where the defensive backs do not have to cover as much field, and it makes it a bit easier to play pass defense, and often teams that aren't at least a little bit run oriented often end up settling for field goals. I know penalties and several other things can also cause issues inside the 20, but I've said this before and will say it again. Run the ball Richlands.

That 92 Richlands team was one of the absolutely LEAST athletic teams I've seen at Richlands. Some of the GC title teams weren't overly athletic when talking about their last two, but from tackle to tackle, they were vicious. Richlands needs a culture shift on offense. They have had the bigs and some strong dudes up front for years, and they got s kid now that should be getting 20-25 carries per game and is electric, yet they want to send him on a 15 and out route on first down which kills the drive. 

Only my take.

That 1992 team could pass as well, which kept teams honest. With all cleat references aside, the Brannon Breeding 46 carry performance against a perceived athletically superior Salem team was just as impressive, if not more, to support my bias. I was simply younger and couldn't remember the other statistics. 

[Hokie1Pokie 350]

Totnado99, I watched a GC beating Gretna by exactly what you are referring to. LINEplay, but not just that, having a culture of establishing dominance with the run first. The discussions around Richlands used to be which running back was getting 1500 and whether Richlands could average 300 per game on the ground, BUT......having a very efficient passing game at the same time. The 92 and 93 Richlands would run it, run it, make you put 7-8 in the box, then drill you with the pass.

GC was that way for years. For Richlands, a run oriented culture would help their defensive backfield which has been shaky the last few years. They could get that help by a shortened game where the opponent gets fewer possessions. I love Mance and think he is one of the top coaches in VA at any level. You can still run the ball out of a 4 wide set on early downs. 

[Hokie1Pokie 350]

One more thing on the Blues and only my opinion. Richlands and some of those mammoth sized lines and strong kids up front may perform better with run blocking. If you have 4-5 wide, you often lose that additional blocker and spacing between the offensive lineman can make pass blocking tougher. In short, quickness comes in to play here. There can be a world of difference in a kid 6'2, 280 lbs run blocking and driving his kid off the ball versus pass blocking in a 4 wide set. Again, I just see Richlands have an advantage in a run first culture on offense when considering the defensive backfield may struggle some, they don't have a bunch of speed at WR, and the QB isn't quite as accurate right now than some in the past. It's the perfect year for the Blues to split 2 wide and that's it, and give the dude the ball 25 times per game. 

[tornado99 345]

2 minutes ago, Hokie1Pokie said:

Totnado99, I watched a GC beating Gretna by exactly what you are referring to. LINEplay, but not just that, having a culture of establishing dominance with the run first. The discussions around Richlands used to be which running back was getting 1500 and whether Richlands could average 300 per game on the ground, BUT......having a very efficient passing game at the same time. The 92 and 93 Richlands would run it, run it, make you out 7-8 in the box, then drill you with the pass.

GC was that way for years. For Richlands, a run oriented culture would help their defensive backfield which has been shaky the last few years. They could get that help by a shortened game where the opponent gets fewer possessions. I love Mance and think he is one of the too coaches in VA at any level. You can still run the ball out of a 4 wide set on early downs. 

Hoping not to appear critical, only sharing my preference, I echo the quote above. At the risk of hijacking the thread, to wax poetic,  I like the simplicity or nostalgia of the game at it's roots and prefer the multiple running back formations. 

The 2010 game was on the same date as Richlands vs Poquoson,  but the 2003 Gate City team I witnessed in the semifinals and finals were brutes.  Kilgore was a beast at Tailback, but you couldn't sleep on Spivey to Seaver. They simply ran over an Essex team in the finals.

[Gridiron60 2,554]

35 minutes ago, Hokie1Pokie said:

Ryan, I didn't see the game and admit that. I did listen to it. I still believe it goes back to a thread preseason where I critiqued Richlands offensive culture. I watched it with Appo and I watched it with T. Ashby and Poqouson. It's critical to have some kind of a run culture. I've seen it with Texas Tech and Oregon over the years. What I'm getting at is this......if you don't have a run oriented or at least an offense that can run it when it wants, the tell-tale signs occur in the red zone where the defensive backs do not have to cover as much field, and it makes it a bit easier to play pass defense, and often teams that aren't at least a little bit run oriented often end up settling for field goals. I know penalties and several other things can also cause issues inside the 20, but I've said this before and will say it again. Run the ball Richlands.

That 92 Richlands team was one of the absolutely LEAST athletic teams I've seen at Richlands. Some of the GC title teams weren't overly athletic when talking about their last two, but from tackle to tackle, they were vicious. Richlands needs a culture shift on offense. They have had the bigs and some strong dudes up front for years, and they got s kid now that should be getting 20-25 carries per game and is electric, yet they want to send him on a 15 and out route on first down which kills the drive. 

Only my take.

The majority of games Richlands lost in state playoffs were due to offensive miscues. The defense has always been stronger in my opinion than offense. Hopefully, Mance can find the magic formula to get offense clicking this year. Everyone is rooting for Mance to get that 200th win but it's going to be a long season if they're depending solely on field goals to win. 

[Westisthebest 88]

No one knows this team like Mance so im sure he does what he does for a good reason. We're all here just giving our opinions which i think is great to have a place to do that. I would just like to see Mance adapt. I just dont think he has the personnel to run a true spread. I mean how many practices would it take to throw in some plays with a couple different formations? Without the speed they need to be playing the short game. Slants, middle screens, delayed routes from the TE. Then every once in a while throw in a stop and go. Try the pistol formation with 2 RBs and a TE that way it gives the RB more space to  hit the hole harder and you can still stay in shotgun. But with Medley and Whited i believe i would always have a TE in the middle of the field. Maybe even 2. Double them up on one side. Imagine the mismatches with their height.  And why no play action? Mance in all the years ive been watching, i might see 2 play action passes all year. This would open huge holes for slants and the TE in my opinion. I get it Mance lives and dies by the spread. But when youve only scored 1 offensive TD in 2 games its not working. Like someone said, spread is great if you have the playmakers. With lack of speed you have to have some misdirection. Cant really do that with one back. Its too easy for the defense to see who has the ball unless youre a downhill runner then it doesnt really matter if you hit the hole hard. I know ill probably piss someone off with this by coming off like a know it all but honestly just giving my opinion cuz i really know nothing. Just throwing my thoughts out there on what i would like to see. I would never make it as a coach so why not give couch coaching a try hahaha. Whatever happens im still pulling for Mance and company. But at least maybe some play action? 😕

[old_school_blue 247]

11 hours ago, Jags52 said:

I agree 100% De La Salle won 151 games in a row running the split back veer I promise you they didn’t change their offense after that first Mance is probably the winningest active coach in the area if he thinks Richlands should be in the spread I would stand by that as a fan base and not want to change everything after a 3 point game

You cannot compare De La Salle to Richlands.  That in itself is simply ridiculous....although I am sure Mance would salivate at the athletes found at such a school.  Answer me this....(1) In the last twenty years, when Richlands has the "winningest" coach in the area and a program you are comparing to De La Salle, why have they (Richlands) only won one state championship.  And..(2)...How have they only won one when they have found themselves in five or six title games and have only faced one team in the finals better than they were (Monticello...my opion of course...however, I will argue.)

[old_school_blue 247]

15 hours ago, Jags52 said:

The whole point of the spread offense is to spread people out. It is a lot easier to to run the football against a 5 or 6 man box that is just a fact. Richlands has the ability to go 10 personnel and run for 200 yards a game because usually have one of the best passing attacks in swva because Mance does a great job with the pass concepts and 7 on 7 in the summer. I get the old school idea of you need 2 TE and a FB in the game or you can’t run the ball because that’s what swva is use to but here is a little math for you 5 lineman + 2 TE + 2 backs + 1 QB = 10 players guess how many defensive players you have in the box... 10 and you eliminate all the fancy Q runs that you can do out of the spread to account for that last defender you can block if you have a 6 man box. I would rather take my chances with 5 guys blocking perfect than trying to block 10 people any day of the week. This is all just my opinion though I’m just a young buck that likes a fast paced wide open offense that shows the coach’s creativity instead of 3 yards and a cloud of dust of running the same 4 plays over and over and over again.. 

  What you do not understand is mentality.  3 yards and a cloud of dust wins championships.....If we had more dust against Appo a couple years ago (21-6 lead with 6 minutes left in 4th) Richlands would have won a state title.  In football, maliciousness beats creativity.....Union wore us out running four plays.  That is what Turner likes...that what his father liked....beating teams up physically....making people quit...winning through attrition.  From a coaching standpoint, I would rather beat you to death and make you quit...that is more satisfying...that is what you don't understand......it's not about blocking 10 people...it about whipping their ass until they backpedal every play.......

[tornado99 345]

2 hours ago, old_school_blue said:

  What you do not understand is mentality.  3 yards and a cloud of dust wins championships.....If we had more dust against Appo a couple years ago (21-6 lead with 6 minutes left in 4th) Richlands would have won a state title.  In football, maliciousness beats creativity.....Union wore us out running four plays.  That is what Turner likes...that what his father liked....beating teams up physically....making people quit...winning through attrition.  From a coaching standpoint, I would rather beat you to death and make you quit...that is more satisfying...that is what you don't understand......it's not about blocking 10 people...it about whipping their ass until they backpedal every play.......

This is why I enjoy football more than any other sport. If you don't have the athletes, or are not a great athlete, you can be successful through sheer toughness and determination.  A Clydesdale may not beat Thoroughbred in a race, BUT if it becomes a draft pull the odds are definitely in his favor.