Historical perspective -- how bad is this VT team?

[RichlandsAlum 678]

My original thought was this is the worst Hokie team in 32 years.  But I think that first 1987 team under Beamer would actually be favored over the current version.

So just for the sake of argument, I will offer the opinion that this is the worst Virginia Tech team since 1977.  Who cares to prove me wrong?

 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Record-wise, no.  Talent and scheme-wise, maybe.  That was an ugly game that I did not see coming.  Off a BYE too.

[GMan 3,569]

This team is 60s and 70s bad...back in the day when it was a struggle to compete with the likes of Bill & Mary, Richmond, and VMI...

 

[RiverRat24 274]

This Hokies team is really bad....and I'll be the first to admit I thought Fuente was a homerun hire for VT.  But now its starting to look like one of the more disappointing hires right up there with Taggart at FSU.  Their recruiting has been abysmal and there doesnt seem to be much life on the sidelines from the coaches and players either one. 

So that leads me to these questions......is Fuente a good coach and just not a good fit for VT?   Is there turmoil within between Fuente and Foster and the rest of the coaching staff?  Or was Fuente just a product of good coordinators at Memphis along with a stud QB and turns out hes just not a good HC afterall?

Also, will be interesting to see what direction they go in next year when Foster leaves.  

[Ryan4VT 4,550]

1 hour ago, RiverRat24 said:

This Hokies team is really bad....and I'll be the first to admit I thought Fuente was a homerun hire for VT.  But now its starting to look like one of the more disappointing hires right up there with Taggart at FSU.  Their recruiting has been abysmal and there doesnt seem to be much life on the sidelines from the coaches and players either one. 

So that leads me to these questions......is Fuente a good coach and just not a good fit for VT?   Is there turmoil within between Fuente and Foster and the rest of the coaching staff?  Or was Fuente just a product of good coordinators at Memphis along with a stud QB and turns out hes just not a good HC afterall?

Also, will be interesting to see what direction they go in next year when Foster leaves.  

His main coordinators are basically the exact same from Memphis. I think you see every assistant except Burden and Hamilton let go at the end of the season and try to fix it with new blood. It's a young team that has talent. Either way, can't afford to fire him, so the next best option is an overhaul of the staff.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

5 hours ago, Ryan4VT said:

His main coordinators are basically the exact same from Memphis. I think you see every assistant except Burden and Hamilton let go at the end of the season and try to fix it with new blood. It's a young team that has talent. Either way, can't afford to fire him, so the next best option is an overhaul of the staff.

I’ve read several articles, including the Yahoo piece from yesterday, and the bolder statement is certainly debatable.  The talent’s not being developed, which will become apparent in the years to follow.  And your 2020 recruiting class is worse than any London ever brought in for us.

[sixcat 2,916]

5 hours ago, Ryan4VT said:

His main coordinators are basically the exact same from Memphis. I think you see every assistant except Burden and Hamilton let go at the end of the season and try to fix it with new blood. It's a young team that has talent. Either way, can't afford to fire him, so the next best option is an overhaul of the staff.

I agree it's a young team.  I'm not sure I agree they have talent.  Below is a snippet from a Yahoo Sports article from yesterday.

On defense, the issue is simple, according to an opposing assistant coach familiar with Tech. He said there’s been a precipitous drop in talent: “It’s not even close to 2016,” he said, referencing Fuente’s first season with Beamer’s players. “I bet they don’t have one NFL player on defense. In the past, those defenses were stocked with NFL guys.”

I've been saying it for 3 years, VT is losing the recruiting battle for the state of Virginia handily to UVA.  VT is getting a lot of the recruits they target.  The recruits coming in to the VT program aren't developing one iota once on campus.  They flat-line and that's a result of poor coaching.  So the question is, which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Is VT targeting the wrong players in recruiting or failing to develop those players once on campus?  Or a combination of the two?

Either way, the Fuente/Foster experiment hasn't worked. 

[GMan 3,569]

1 hour ago, UVAObserver said:

2020 recruiting class is worse than any London ever brought in for us.

2020 is bad because we only have a few scholarships available for 2020...only 4 seniors on the team.  Hopefully we'll have 15 or so kids to leave again so we can sign some more, better talent...but that won't happen as thing are right now.

[GMan 3,569]

1 hour ago, sixcat said:

I agree it's a young team.  I'm not sure I agree they have talent.  Below is a snippet from a Yahoo Sports article from yesterday.

On defense, the issue is simple, according to an opposing assistant coach familiar with Tech. He said there’s been a precipitous drop in talent: “It’s not even close to 2016,” he said, referencing Fuente’s first season with Beamer’s players. “I bet they don’t have one NFL player on defense. In the past, those defenses were stocked with NFL guys.”

I've been saying it for 3 years, VT is losing the recruiting battle for the state of Virginia handily to UVA.  VT is getting a lot of the recruits they target.  The recruits coming in to the VT program aren't developing one iota once on campus.  They flat-line and that's a result of poor coaching.  So the question is, which came first, the chicken or the egg?  Is VT targeting the wrong players in recruiting or failing to develop those players once on campus?  Or a combination of the two?

Either way, the Fuente/Foster experiment hasn't worked. 

The loss of defensive recruits is due to the fact that Bud's time at VT was in question.  That's one reason they went ahead and announced his retirement at the beginning of the season.  Hopefully the next DC will be able to land some talent on the D side of the ball.

[GMan 3,569]

7 hours ago, Ryan4VT said:

Either way, can't afford to fire him,

Whit has been on the phone with big $$$$ donors trying to get someone to write a check...not sure if that'll happen though if what I've heard about some of the big money guys is true...

Lots of issues at VT right now for those that love football...beginning to think we are becoming a true ACC team...just another basketball school...

 

[sixcat 2,916]

19 minutes ago, GMan said:

The loss of defensive recruits is due to the fact that Bud's time at VT was in question.  That's one reason they went ahead and announced his retirement at the beginning of the season.  Hopefully the next DC will be able to land some talent on the D side of the ball.

Two Saturday's ago while watching football throughout the day, I saw no less than 6 former Hokies playing for other schools.  And playing well I might add!  I still don't see any development of the players on the Hokie roster......offense or defense.  

Who would have thought Hokie Nation would be eagerly anticipating basketball season in early October!  😏

[GMan 3,569]

2 hours ago, sixcat said:

Who would have thought Hokie Nation would be eagerly anticipating basketball season in early October!  😏

See my post above yours....

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Trying really hard not to venture into territory that may be personally offensive....  But my observation is that the members of this particular team aren't particularly smart (I'll point to turnover and penalty data as a source for that argument).  And unfortunately they are not athletic enough to compensate for that shortcoming.  That dynamic didn't affect the ability to succeed at Memphis -- but it's proving to be an absolute killer in the ACC.

Ultimately I think that both Fuente and Willie Taggart are exceptional coaches at the tier just below P5 -- and certainly demonstrated as much.  But their particular success  was not the kind that could be extrapolated as a prediction of performance at the P5 level.  Unfortunately for both VT and Florida State, there was simply no way to know that.

It's hard for me to come up with contemporary examples, but Marshall had a couple of coaches in the mid 1980s (Stan Parrish and George Chaump) that also illustrate the point.  

[RichlandsAlum 678]

3 hours ago, GMan said:

Whit has been on the phone with big $$$$ donors trying to get someone to write a check...not sure if that'll happen though if what I've heard about some of the big money guys is true...

Lots of issues at VT right now for those that love football...beginning to think we are becoming a true ACC team...just another basketball school...

 

I'm hearing a lot of chatter about the money folks as well.  "Timing" is the term that I hear tossed around most frequently.  Some of the donors are gun shy because they genuinely like Fuente and want to give him the benefit of the doubt.  A plausible scenario I've heard is that the pot for the resignation option could be sweetened by donors above the $3 million amount listed in the contract.  The biggest question there would be Fuente's own ideas about his long-term career trajectory.

In any event I think it's highly unlikely that anything will be announced publicly before the conclusion of the regular season.  

[Widespread_Panic 197]

23 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

Ultimately I think that both Fuente and Willie Taggart are exceptional coaches at the tier just below P5 -- and certainly demonstrated as much.  But their particular success  was not the kind that could be extrapolated as a prediction of performance at the P5 level.  Unfortunately for both VT and Florida State, there was simply no way to know that.

Fuente didn't do himself any favors with the staff he hired. He should have went after proven recruiters to compensate for his weaknesses. After Friday he should have taken over play calling duties and owned up to the problems on offense instead of passing the buck to his OC who is in way over his head. 

[GMan 3,569]

41 minutes ago, Widespread_Panic said:

Fuente didn't do himself any favors with the staff he hired. He should have went after proven recruiters to compensate for his weaknesses. After Friday he should have taken over play calling duties and owned up to the problems on offense instead of passing the buck to his OC who is in way over his head. 

It isn't always about being a good "recruiter" as long as the coach has the ability to develop players...that's part of the issue now at VT.  We've got more 4-star athletes on the roster now than ever, but the coaches are not doing anything to help these players develop into their potential...that's a year over year thing.  Dalton Keene was better as a freshman than he is now.  Same with Dax Hollifield.  Those are just two examples off the top of my head, but if you've watched them over the last couple of years, you know who the players are who were better then than they are now.

[1inStripes 932]

2 hours ago, RichlandsAlum said:

 

Ultimately I think that both Fuente and Willie Taggart are exceptional coaches at the tier just below P5 -- and certainly demonstrated as much.  But their particular success  was not the kind that could be extrapolated as a prediction of performance at the P5 level.  Unfortunately for both VT and Florida State, there was simply no way to know that.

 

Willie Taggart has been a flop almost everywhere he has been.  Why FSU went that route I have no idea.  He is 4 games below 500 for his career and has only one 10+ games once in his career I believe.  That hire by Oregon and then again by FSU was a head scratcher to me as he is the epitome of mediocre.  He will probably be Tennnessees next coach he would be such a bad hire.

[Liam McPoyle 1,863]

 

The very first VPI game I saw in-person was, coincidentally, during the aforementioned low water-mark of 1977. I watched Clemson spank my hapless Fighting Gobblers in a torrential downpour.  Instead of viewing that day as an omen of life-long heartbreak, I inexplicably become an even bigger fan.  That decision haunts me to this day. 

[RichlandsAlum 678]

20 hours ago, 1inStripes said:

Willie Taggart has been a flop almost everywhere he has been.  Why FSU went that route I have no idea.  He is 4 games below 500 for his career and has only one 10+ games once in his career I believe.  That hire by Oregon and then again by FSU was a head scratcher to me as he is the epitome of mediocre.  He will probably be Tennnessees next coach he would be such a bad hire.

I'm impressed with what Taggert accomplished at Western Kentucky.  And he did swing South Florida in the right direction when he took over from Leavitt.  Those two rebuilding jobs had a direct impact on his W/L record.  It's reasonable to think that his record would have improved if he had stayed at USF and focused all of his energies on that program.

In historical terms, I think Frank Cignetti is an example of the point I'm making about gauging success at the right level.  Sensible hire for West Virginia at the time (heir to Bobby Bowden in 1975) that just didn't pan out.  Then found his niche in Division II at Indiana (PA) many years later and enjoyed great success at that level.

[1inStripes 932]

Taggert actually succeeded Skip Holtz at USF.  They got worse before they got better under him, but did finish 10-2 in his last year there.  They were predicted to win the conference put lost to Temple to not make it to the conference title game.  Also the only bowl game he has coached in was while at USF, losing to his alma mater WKU 3 years after he left.  Maybe he turns it around at FSU, but I just dont see it happening.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

19 minutes ago, 1inStripes said:

Taggert actually succeeded Skip Holtz at USF.  They got worse before they got better under him, but did finish 10-2 in his last year there.  They were predicted to win the conference put lost to Temple to not make it to the conference title game.  Also the only bowl game he has coached in was while at USF, losing to his alma mater WKU 3 years after he left.  Maybe he turns it around at FSU, but I just dont see it happening.

Oops.  Forgot about Holtz. In any event, I agree that Taggert is way out of his depth at Florida State.  And it is rather ironic that they allegedly made a run at Fuente when they wound up hiring him.

[Widespread_Panic 197]

On 10/2/2019 at 1:18 PM, GMan said:

It isn't always about being a good "recruiter" as long as the coach has the ability to develop players...that's part of the issue now at VT.  We've got more 4-star athletes on the roster now than ever, but the coaches are not doing anything to help these players develop into their potential...that's a year over year thing.  Dalton Keene was better as a freshman than he is now.  Same with Dax Hollifield.  Those are just two examples off the top of my head, but if you've watched them over the last couple of years, you know who the players are who were better then than they are now.

True but the 2020 class currently sits at last in the ACC. A lack of talent added with a lack of player development is a sure formula for continue losses. I could give Fuente the benefit of the doubt with how young the roster is but the future looks bleak when the next recruiting class ranks somewhere in the 80s. If some of the more talented players hit the transfer portal Tech will be in a long rebuild mode. 

[Ryan4VT 4,550]

3 hours ago, Widespread_Panic said:

True but the 2020 class currently sits at last in the ACC. A lack of talent added with a lack of player development is a sure formula for continue losses. I could give Fuente the benefit of the doubt with how young the roster is but the future looks bleak when the next recruiting class ranks somewhere in the 80s. If some of the more talented players hit the transfer portal Tech will be in a long rebuild mode. 

You have to put the 2020 class out of your mind. It’s a small class. With only 6 seniors on the roster. They don’t have room for many players. They could pull in a class full of 4 stars and it would still fall outside the top 30 because of the small amount we can go get. 

[Widespread_Panic 197]

53 minutes ago, Ryan4VT said:

You have to put the 2020 class out of your mind. It’s a small class. With only 6 seniors on the roster. They don’t have room for many players. They could pull in a class full of 4 stars and it would still fall outside the top 30 because of the small amount we can go get. 

It is a small class but they are offering guys with either no other offers or competing with Liberty and ODU. 6 seniors is very small but I have a feeling there will be at least 5 to 10 more in the transfer portal by the start of next season. 

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Based on this past weekend's results (ahem.... Duke) I will ratchet my previous assessment up to 1982.  That was the Bill Dooley team that was pasted 45-0 at Vanderbilt (which probably cost Tech a rare and coveted bowl bid that year).

There still seem to be a lot of personnel-related issues with this current team that need to be worked out.  Until we see how that works I'm hesitant to move the needle beyond 1987.  Using the transitive property, I don't think the 1987 Hokies could have pulled off a road win like the one this past weekend.  But my gut feeling is that team could still hang with the current version.  

Guess we will find out in the next couple of weeks which game was the fluke.  The blowout loss to Duke or the road win at Miami.  I'd like to believe that Fuente is righting the ship but I'm pretty far from being convinced.