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VHSL denies Giles bid to move down a classification.


Real Sasquatch
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16 minutes ago, RichlandsAlum said:

Population in Tazewell County peaked right around 1980.  At that time Richlands had an enrollment of about 1,300 and there was a lot of chatter about us being bumped up to Class AAA and playing in the old Roanoke Valley District.  (Guessing that we may have even been the beneficiary of a classification appeal ourselves at that time.)  But those numbers started to drop pretty consistently shortly thereafter.  By the time I graduated in 1989 RHS was down to about 1,100.

Pointing all of that out on our end of the county because I'm curious if things were the same in Bluefield.  Narrative I always heard growing up was that Graham "played up" consistently from the point of the 1970 realignment.  And that does indeed make the athletic accomplishments of those teams more impressive, IMO.

Back then the VHSL used only grades 10-12 to determine classification and there was a hard cutoff of 500 for A/AA and 1000 for AA/AAA so Richlands would’ve been pretty close. The VHSL went to equal thirds sometime in the early to mid 1990s. That combined with increasing enrollments in the rest of Virginia gradually moved the AA/AAA cutoff above 1000.

I think Grundy’s enrollment was comparable to Richlands’ during the 1980s. The freshman class at Tazewell had over 250 in 1986 which I believe was the largest to come through at the time.

Carroll County was allowed to play down for years in the New River District. I always used to say they were a AAA school in a  AA district playing a Single A schedule (Floyd, Grayson, Galax non district).

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15 minutes ago, hoard said:

Back then the VHSL used only grades 10-12 to determine classification and there was a hard cutoff of 500 for A/AA and 1000 for AA/AAA so Richlands would’ve been pretty close. The VHSL went to equal thirds sometime in the early to mid 1990s. That combined with increasing enrollments in the rest of Virginia gradually moved the AA/AAA cutoff above 1000.

I think Grundy’s enrollment was comparable to Richlands’ during the 1980s. The freshman class at Tazewell had over 250 in 1986 which I believe was the largest to come through at the time.

Carroll County was allowed to play down for years in the New River District. I always used to say they were a AAA school in a  AA district playing a Single A schedule (Floyd, Grayson, Galax non district).

Good info on all counts.  I had forgotten the ADM calculation based solely on grades 10-12.  That's ultimately what kept Richlands under the line for AAA.  Ultimately I think the operational changes in the steel industry which took place in the late 1970s had both the largest and most direct impact upon demographics within Buchanan, Mercer, McDowell, and Tazewell counties.

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1 hour ago, hoard said:

Carroll County was allowed to play down for years in the New River District. I always used to say they were a AAA school in a  AA district playing a Single A schedule (Floyd, Grayson, Galax non district).

It would be reasonable to suggest Carroll has played down since leaving the New River District but they were certainly not playing down while a member of the NRD.  Carroll wasn't even the largest school in the NRD at any point during the 25 years they were a member.  Blacksburg and Christiansburg were both larger.  Radford was significantly larger in those days as well, although I don't believe they were ever quite as large as Carroll.  Both Dublin and Pulaski were also members of the NRD prior to consolidation into Pulaski County. 

Giles, Galax and Narrows played up to a AA level while members of the NRD before dropping to single A and moving over to the MED in 1988.  At some point in the 80's, Floyd moved over to the MED, where they remained until the inception of the Three River District.  Grayson has only been in existence since 1988 when Fries and Independence consolidated.  No Grayson County school was ever a member of the NRD.

The Carroll schedule my freshman year was Cave Spring, Patrick, Galax, GW, Radford, Christiansburg, Floyd, Chilhowie, Giles, Blacksburg and Lee (playoffs).  Chilhowie was a last minute change because both Carroll and Chilhowie were left without games when Fieldale-Collinsville dropped Carroll because of the formation of Magna Vista the prior year.  Chilhowie lost a game when Saltville and RB Worthy consolidated. 

The schedule my sophomore year was Patrick, Galax, Grayson, William Byrd, Christiansburg, Floyd, Radford, GW, Blacksburg, Grundy, Blacksburg (playoffs).

Carroll, Galax and Grayson are border rivalries.  The gate proceeds for all three schools would be far too much to give up.  I don't think it's fair to suggest they played "down" during the years in the NRD!

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1 hour ago, Grapeape said:

Group A division 2 was Phil Robbins Land. Graham might actually have less titles at that level. Would have been one heck of a region championship game in 1995. 

Powell Valley wouldn’t have won in 1989 or 1990 (though 1990 would have been a great game), and Graham wouldn’t have won in 1995.  Honestly, I think Powell Valley would have probably beaten Graham soundly in a 1995 hypothetical matchup.  
 

Would have flipped the record books of the 2 schools for sure though.  A shame they never played through the years.

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On 9/4/2020 at 1:09 PM, UVAObserver said:

Powell Valley wouldn’t have won in 1989 or 1990 (though 1990 would have been a great game), and Graham wouldn’t have won in 1995.  Honestly, I think Powell Valley would have probably beaten Graham soundly in a 1995 hypothetical matchup.  
 

Would have flipped the record books of the 2 schools for sure though.  A shame they never played through the years.

I think it's fair to say one team prob snipes one title from the other (Graham takes PVs in 89 but PV gets Grahams in 95) and the 1990 game is basically a coin flip. The 90 PV team was a veteran team that didn't have many holes. Graham probably had more athletic talent at the skill positions but PV was rock solid at the LOS and had a great QB. They finished undefeated and only one opponent, Lebanon, was within one score. 

 

There were a couple common opponents in 1990:

Grundy (PV won 42-0, Graham won 47-16)

Gate City (PV won 40-18, Graham won 34-15 in the half state game)

Not a lot can be gleaned there, both beat GC handily at home and both beat Grundy handily, PV on road and Graham at home. 

would have been an incredible matchup, I'd favor PV but I'm not the most impartial juror.

 

in 95, I feel like PV would be a decent favorite. They were undefeated and beat one of the two teams that got Graham early in the season, Lee, by a decent margin (PV won 48-33 at home, Graham fell 21-19 at Lee). The transitive property usually means very little when predicting old games but it's really all we have to go on. Both teams beat Richlands (PV won 34-13 on road, Graham won 31-3 on road) and Gate City (PV won 12-0 at GC, Graham beat them twice, 31-13 at home and 21-14 at GC). But it's all transitive and hypothetical anyway. 

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On 9/4/2020 at 11:29 AM, Grapeape said:

Group A division 2 was Phil Robbins Land. Graham might actually have less titles at that level. Would have been one heck of a region championship game in 1995. 

Graham would have done well at the single A level from 72 through 85, which is where they should have been. Graham also would have done well in 93, 2000, and really from 2000-2004ish at the Group 2A level and not playing Div 3. The 93 team by seasons end was very good, and lost to a once in a generational type team in Jef. Forest in the semis. Hard to say what happens historically, but Graham, Richlands, Gate City, and Giles have been at the same level for a while now, and P. Valley/Union has gone 2 decades since winning a title.

One thing we can't account for and many forget about when discussing these things is not game 14 or 15 and which team is better on that game. It's about the wear and tear of playing the schedule of a higher level from games 1 through 13 and the competition getting there, and what competition does in the areas of injuries. I'm touching on the old Boise State argument and no question, as Boise demonstrated, they could play with and sometimes beat the elite Big 12/SEC schools in those Big Bowl games for one given game, but Boise wasn't going through the gauntlet like Oklahoma or Bama was week after week which tears into your depth chart. At the Div 3 level, Graham was playing the likes of 5A GW Danville, Blacksburg, Woodrow Wilson,  Greenville, TN, and just an absolute gauntlet of teams long before the state semis or state finals. Historically, nobody knows what would have happened, but Graham truly did play up for years.

Years I feel confident the GMen would have done well and very likely would have had a title if playing down were....

1976- Graham lost to BBurg who then lost to Martinsville 6-3 as time expired, and Martinsville lost state title to legendary Southampton in the title game as time expired. Graham beat Gate City in 76. In single A, Pennington lost the state title to Madison County by a TD.

1981, Graham lost at Martinsville (if I can call it that) and Martinsville lost at Tabb the following week in the title game.

1990, 

1993- one of the most underrated Graham teams. Lost 7-6 at Salem in a game Graham doubled Salem's total yardage and had 5 TOs. In the playoffs, Graham lost to a 2015 type Appo team in Jef. FOREST which was a once in a two decade type team. Giles won the Div 2 title and it's closest games were Blacksburg (beat em by a TD) and Haysi. Graham best Blacksburg by 2 TDs that year and led 26-7 until a last minute Blacksburg score. 

2001. That Graham team shouldn't have lost to Harrisonburg 

2003. Ahmad's senior year lost to again, what may have been a team of the decade in yr semis to Gretna. 

If Graham had played at their level, I think they have 6 more title minus one to equal 5 more. In 95, Graham wouldn't have beat Powell Valley. Graham had some good teams that they would have been in the conversation for in 1974, 1978 and 1984.  One of Gate Cities toughest contest on that legendary team was their 37-0 win over Graham, but a game that was 14-0 going I to the fourth. GC beat Southampton 28-7 in yr state finals. If Graham is single A in 74, they would have been in the mix for sure.

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33 minutes ago, redtiger said:

If Graham "should have " been A why weren't they? What advantage was there in playing up in AA, other than keeping all of the Tazewell Co schools together?

 The single A teams in the area were sub-par and the coach knew that he couldn't build a good team without good competition.

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2 hours ago, redtiger said:

If Graham "should have " been A why weren't they? What advantage was there in playing up in AA, other than keeping all of the Tazewell Co schools together?

It was kinda common. Richlands played up for years. I’m pretty sure the state title we won in 06, we were playing up from what we could have been. 

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22 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

What do you define as in the area? Tazwell county or all of SWVA? 

Pocahontas was the only single A  in Taz County.  In the immediate area you have Bland, Narz, Rural Retreat and Fort Chiswell.  Glynn Carlock wanted to play strong opponents and that is no secret around here. Graham would have been in the MED most likely.  The Southwest District offered tougher competition and out of district always included Bluefield and teams like Blacksburg, Cave Spring, Woodrow Wilson, GW-Danville, Elizabethton, Radford, Salem, etc...(and did quite well). He never scheduled easy wins.  After he left, Graham went to the MED briefly while they were down.  That was a mistake.  

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25 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

What do you define as in the area? Tazwell county or all of SWVA? 

Coach Carlock was a tough Dude.  A former marine who was all about playing the best competition and competing against very tough competition.  He was wired that way.  As mentioned, the single A schools in the area (keep in mind now, 1971 to 1985 (3 levels of play in Virginia).  Graham would have been playing the likes of Pocahontas (no disrespect to the Indians who I still love and went there for 2 years), Fort Chiswell, Rural Retreat, Northwood, Garden, Saltville -Worthy High (fell off big time by the mid 70's after their late state runs of prior years), Rich Valley etc.  The single A competition in far Southwestern Va with the likes of Lonesome Pine was more than legit as we all know, but Graham couldn't possibly be in that district with those travel times.  By 1986 with the reclassification from 3 levels of play to 6 levels of play, Graham's usual competition was already at the Div 3 level.  Also, Coach Carlock loved going east.  Graham played Blacksburg, Salem, Christiansburg many times and many years, and he had some games with GW Danville.  Those teams wouldn't have likely played game after 1985 when Graham played em (if Graham were Div 2-Single A  I know Giles and BBurg played when Giles dropped in the early 90's, but that's a rival game.  For the reasons above, these are why Graham played down for years not just from 71 to 85, but from 86 until Graham finally dropped to Div 2 in the mid 2000s. As Sasquatch mentioned, I had forgot about GW Danville, Elizabethton, Woodrow Wilson (Triple A Beckley, WV), also Greenville, TN, with Graham winning one of those contests over Greenville also.  

Coach Carlock actually scrimmaged Varina once.  I think this was Ahmad Bradshaw's senior year.  Varina was a powerhouse.  I think they were Div 5 then. 

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23 minutes ago, vtdavis4321 said:

Coach Carlock actually scrimmaged Varina once.  I think this was Ahmad Bradshaw's senior year.  Varina was a powerhouse.  I think they were Div 5 then. 

He did that in 2001 (the runner-up season).  He scheduled Varina because he knew that team needed a lesson in humility before the season got underway.  Varina blanked Graham 35-0, and then proceeded to go 11-1 (in D5), losing a shocker 15-14 to Thomas Dale in their region championship game.  
 

Needless to say, the lesson in humility did not endure to the end.

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2 hours ago, Real Sasquatch said:

Pocahontas was the only single A  in Taz County.  In the immediate area you have Bland, Narz, Rural Retreat and Fort Chiswell.  Glynn Carlock wanted to play strong opponents and that is no secret around here. Graham would have been in the MED most likely.  The Southwest District offered tougher competition and out of district always included Bluefield and teams like Blacksburg, Cave Spring, Woodrow Wilson, GW-Danville, Elizabethton, Radford, Salem, etc...(and did quite well). He never scheduled easy wins.  After he left, Graham went to the MED briefly while they were down.  That was a mistake.  

Okay I gotcha. I was gonna say, it would be some hellacious travel times but there were schools in A or Div 2 down in this area that would have proven to be pretty tough opponents on a consistent basis, but there's no way Graham could swing playing in the same district as those schools. I didn't realize there were basically no smaller schools that could consistently challenge Graham in the immediate vicinity.

 

I know I've posted it a ton lol, but in 97, the D1, D2 and D3 champs plus a D4 final four team were all located between Gate City and Ben Hur. The D1 champ beat the D3 champ, GC would have been third best in LPD but won the D3 title lol. 

 

Some of you guys that were around for a long time, why did Graham never play any far SWVA teams OOC until more recently? PV and Richlands played off and on for years, but I'm not aware of any LPD team playing Graham during the 80s or 90s.

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7 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

Some of you guys that were around for a long time, why did Graham never play any far SWVA teams OOC until more recently? PV and Richlands played off and on for years, but I'm not aware of any LPD team playing Graham during the 80s or 90s.

Carlock flat refused to play D1 or D2 teams.  In that time, ratings points didn’t grant the “division boost” we see today.  Losing to a D1 or D2 team would be a point anchor, and given that it was harder to get in the playoffs then, it wasn’t a risk worth taking for Graham.  It wasn’t a logically consistent position, as Graham routinely played teams in higher divisions, but that’s what it was.

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1 hour ago, UVAObserver said:

Carlock flat refused to play D1 or D2 teams.  In that time, ratings points didn’t grant the “division boost” we see today.  Losing to a D1 or D2 team would be a point anchor, and given that it was harder to get in the playoffs then, it wasn’t a risk worth taking for Graham.  It wasn’t a logically consistent position, as Graham routinely played teams in higher divisions, but that’s what it was.

When did they introduce power points? I thought it was just district winners for a long time, like until the late 90s, but I can't remember when they started.

At that time, was a loss to a D3 school better than a potential win against a 7-8 win D2 team? 

 

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The concept of "playing up" has never made sense to me and probably never will. So Carlock played up to face better competition and build better teams(we all know that how it works, cant play a weak schedule and get better) but for what? To play really strong teams that are twice your size? Doesn't make sense to me. If the goal is to win state the chances of doing that against larger competition are slimmer, even if youre better. The MED might not have been strong but chances are Tazewell and Richlands could have remained on the schedule as well as Bluefield and probably Grundy. Im sure a few other teams could have been found to round out a tough schedule (GC, PV, some WV teams). 

I guess its a chicken or egg kind of deal; were those strong Graham teams more or less wasted in AA/D3 or did AA/D3 help create those strong teams. 

I know Haysi always played a weak schedule full of like sized teams and in our good years we won Region a few times (3 officially,1 de facto) but sputtered against bigger competition (Lebanon once, Giles twice). Would a tougher schedule help? Probably, but that's easier said than done for a small school that's geographically isolated (who wants to travel to Haysi? no one). 

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17 hours ago, redtiger said:

If Graham "should have " been A why weren't they? What advantage was there in playing up in AA, other than keeping all of the Tazewell Co schools together?

There was a longstanding policy aimed at keeping Graham, Richlands, and Tazewell grouped together (and those three also stood together with Grundy until numbers in Buchanan County tipped to move the Golden Wave downward in terms of classification).  But Pocahontas was essentially left to fend for itself (other than the occasional "county championship" competitions in various sports over the years).  Never really understood the dynamic behind that particular situation.

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15 hours ago, Real Sasquatch said:

Pocahontas was the only single A  in Taz County.  In the immediate area you have Bland, Narz, Rural Retreat and Fort Chiswell.  Glynn Carlock wanted to play strong opponents and that is no secret around here. Graham would have been in the MED most likely.  The Southwest District offered tougher competition and out of district always included Bluefield and teams like Blacksburg, Cave Spring, Woodrow Wilson, GW-Danville, Elizabethton, Radford, Salem, etc...(and did quite well). He never scheduled easy wins.  After he left, Graham went to the MED briefly while they were down.  That was a mistake.  

Anytime it was considered for Graham to go to single A, they asked to be put in another district besides the MED, but were told the only choice they had was the MED or stay put. with Pocahontas still open that wasn't going to happen.

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33 minutes ago, swva_fan said:

Anytime it was considered for Graham to go to single A, they asked to be put in another district besides the MED, but were told the only choice they had was the MED or stay put. with Pocahontas still open that wasn't going to happen.

Why, size discrepancy?

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4 hours ago, RichlandsAlum said:

There was a longstanding policy aimed at keeping Graham, Richlands, and Tazewell grouped together (and those three also stood together with Grundy until numbers in Buchanan County tipped to move the Golden Wave downward in terms of classification).  But Pocahontas was essentially left to fend for itself (other than the occasional "county championship" competitions in various sports over the years).  Never really understood the dynamic behind that particular situation.

If it weren’t for some Northern District school board representatives with gravitas and respect, Pocahontas would have long ago been relegated to the dustbin of history.  Politically, the Northern District was the swing vote when you’d have the Tazewell/Graham members warring with the Richlands members.  It was always understood that Pocahontas would be allowed to exist because neither side could ill afford to lose a political ally.  For the record, the Graham members more often than not wanted Pocahontas dissolved, but couldn’t publicly voice it due to the threat of losing political balance.
 

Then Tazewell’s newest school board appointee was elected, a Richlands native whom I hold in the lowest possible repute.  Said member started voting with the Richlands bloc on every issue of consequence.  Then some trumped up political shenanigans cost the Northern District member a re-election bid.  The Graham member saw that the political structure had fractured, and pounced on that opportunity to close Pocahontas.

 

So there you are.  It was a little before my time, but one could reasonably read the tea leaves.

 

Pocahontas’s size was never going to allow for an equal playing field with the other schools.  It’s somewhat like the Council problem in Buchanan County, except more accessible.  In retrospect, it needed to happen, but the way it happened was the epitome of dirty politicking.

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