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3 minutes ago, redtiger said:

Poor example, Graham chose to "play up". A better example is Clintwood with -350 playing for state against Buffalo Gap with +600 with both being in the same classification by rule. 

But you're right, the system was trash.

 

If the VHSL wants fewer championships then combine 5A and 6A, and allow more teams to make the playoffs in the new 5A. Enrollment differences mean less at those levels so the smaller 5A schools.arent really being burdened by having to play the larger schools. 

Understand what your saying. Even if we were the largest region 4 school they would've had double the enrollment. The enrollment  in regions is the point I was trying to make.

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Reclassification… The final decision will be based on what the VHSL always bases it’s final decisions on.  The Benjamins, Northern Virginia, and any whining complaints Salem and a couple of other schools may have.  Some of us have been around for a long time and have seen how certain schools and areas get preferential treatment from the VHSL.  We don’t want to hear any lame excuses defending the VHSL. Heck, some teams in Northern VA and the Charlottesville area think a 45 to 60 minute road trip on a school bus on the Interstate is a rough road trip.  

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9 hours ago, CPF said:

That two division per class system was wonderful. Where else could graham with 500 students play Harrisonburg with 1500 students in the same class. What they are doing now works. It's fair for everyone.  Anything else is lunacy.

The issue was that waivers were given out freely and with no scrutiny whatsoever.  Harrisonburg didn’t have 1500 kids, but were comfortably in D4 territory.  Graham had played up in 3A instead of 2A for almost 15 years to that point.  Essentially, you had a 2A team playing a 4A team all because of waivers.  
 

Nevermind that Graham losing that game had nothing to do with the physical talent on the field and everything to do with what was between their ears, but that’s beside the point…

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1 hour ago, foosballer said:

What about the idea that in 2023 each class will become its own governing body? At that point can 2A say they want to have two sub divisions, 2A-1 with enrollment of 376 - 550 and 2A-2 with enrollment of 550 - 750? 

nope that wont happen,  that makes way too much sense 

 

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14 hours ago, VHSLhelper said:

Semantics??  Nope - more like another case of someone not paying attention.

It WASN'T a FOOTBALL story... it was about classification.

 

Nope, Semantics.  The author would have led any person on earth, with a brain, that in 2013, the VHSL changed the number of state championships awarded in football.  Like I said, lazy effort.  The article was more than just about "classification."   The article was referenced by a poster who was talking about decreasing the amount of state titles we award each year, and like I pointed out, the two don't go hand and hand.  I have to ensure I write, "amount of state titles awarded each year" because that concrete brain of yours that just never reached formal operations must be accounted for with each post.  

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6 hours ago, UVAObserver said:

The issue was that waivers were given out freely and with no scrutiny whatsoever.  Harrisonburg didn’t have 1500 kids, but were comfortably in D4 territory.  Graham had played up in 3A instead of 2A for almost 15 years to that point.  Essentially, you had a 2A team playing a 4A team all because of waivers.  
 

Nevermind that Graham losing that game had nothing to do with the physical talent on the field and everything to do with what was between their ears, but that’s beside the point…

Graham lost that game because they were out-coached in my opinion only.  I watched it.  Graham had a NFL sophomore on the field (Bradshaw) that received about 3-4 touches if I recall.  Timmy Sarver, former Bluefield Beaver, put on a clinic that day on how to prepare for a state title game.  Graham was also a very, very, very well-coached team over the years that were fundamentally near-damn perfect with Coach Glynn Carlock, but on that day, Tim Sarver, a former Bluefield Beaver, and another one with roots connected to the Merle Gainer tree won the battle.  It was a poor effort in utilization of Graham's speed in open spaces of which Harrisonburg would have greatly struggled, if presented with that challenge.  The challenge wasn't presented and Graham left a state title on the field that day.  Again, only my opinion.  Not saying it's Gospel, just another fan's perspective.

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8 hours ago, redtiger said:

but fewer classifications would mean fewer teams in the playoffs overall and less money for the VHSL, unless i'm missing something.

Not necessarily. Some of these 1st round playoff barely make money after expenses. Hard to believe??????   Football in parts of Virginia is not big like in SWVA and they don’t have a lot of fan travel like we do.  This year’s 2D playoffs could have (6,7,8) teams with a 5-5 and 2 losing records. Northern Virginia 6D and 6B will probably have the same 6, 7, 8 team records. Richmond 5C could have 5, 6, 7, 8 with losing records. Bet these 3 2D playoff game involving 6, 7, 8 will have a larger attendance than the same 6D, or 6B, or 5C playoff games. Reclassification, especially 4, 5, and 6, will mean same number of teams, but fewer playoff spots, which means better playoff teams in the 5, 6, 7, and 8 spots, which probably means bigger gates than a lot of First Round break even or losing gates.  Remember, The Benjamins will always come first with the VHSL.

Think about this, D2 and D1 Championship Games, Graham or Union D2, Holston D1 at UVA-WIse instead of Salem, how bigger would the gate be?

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5 hours ago, GilesDavis4321 said:

Graham lost that game because they were out-coached in my opinion only.  I watched it.  Graham had a NFL sophomore on the field (Bradshaw) that received about 3-4 touches if I recall.  Timmy Sarver, former Bluefield Beaver, put on a clinic that day on how to prepare for a state title game.  Graham was also a very, very, very well-coached team over the years that were fundamentally near-damn perfect with Coach Glynn Carlock, but on that day, Tim Sarver, a former Bluefield Beaver, and another one with roots connected to the Merle Gainer tree won the battle.  It was a poor effort in utilization of Graham's speed in open spaces of which Harrisonburg would have greatly struggled, if presented with that challenge.  The challenge wasn't presented and Graham left a state title on the field that day.  Again, only my opinion.  Not saying it's Gospel, just another fan's perspective.

1962 Timmy Sarver was a senior on the Bluefield Beavers. They beat Graham 22-6. The key play was a fake punt where Sarver the up man picked up the ball on the fumble rooscy. Harrisonburg ran the same play in the championship game and scored. The 1962 game film is here and the play is at the 3:00 mark of the video.

Sarver was 5'3" and 130 pounds. First team All-State. At the time he graduated he was the all time leading scorer for Bluefield High. He went on to star at Emory and Henry. He coached Bath County and Osborne High before moving to Harrisonburg.

 

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In the Graham-Harrisonburg State Title Game, I set went with my father who was good friends with, and a former teammate of Rusty Fife at Virginia Tech.  Fife was on the Graham of 62 and during the fake punt by Harrisonburg, Fife mentioned to my father at that time that this was the same play that beat them when Sarver played for the Beaver.  My father was in Rusty's wedding.  I've never thought about that until you just brought it up.  Interestingly in the Graham-Harrisonburg game, I remember vividly the Graham fans yelling/loudly, "watch the fake punt."  Evidently, Harrisonburg had faked a few of those all season long.  Again, bad day by the Graham coaching staff who were very, very good over the years, but just like players sometimes have a bad day, coaches sometimes do the same, and on that day, Graham's coaching staff had a bad day, or to put it another way, Sarver and his staff had a much better day.  On that given day, they outcoached Graham and it was the difference in another title for Graham versus leaving one on the field in Lynchburg.

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1 hour ago, ghos88t said:

Not necessarily. Some of these 1st round playoff barely make money after expenses. Hard to believe??????   Football in parts of Virginia is not big like in SWVA and they don’t have a lot of fan travel like we do.  This year’s 2D playoffs could have (6,7,8) teams with a 5-5 and 2 losing records. Northern Virginia 6D and 6B will probably have the same 6, 7, 8 team records. Richmond 5C could have 5, 6, 7, 8 with losing records. Bet these 3 2D playoff game involving 6, 7, 8 will have a larger attendance than the same 6D, or 6B, or 5C playoff games. Reclassification, especially 4, 5, and 6, will mean same number of teams, but fewer playoff spots, which means better playoff teams in the 5, 6, 7, and 8 spots, which probably means bigger gates than a lot of First Round break even or losing gates.  Remember, The Benjamins will always come first with the VHSL.

Think about this, D2 and D1 Championship Games, Graham or Union D2, Holston D1 at UVA-WIse instead of Salem, how bigger would the gate be?

Talking about a bigger gate draw at UVA-Wise would depend  alot on who they were  playing, teams from up north or east will probably travel better to Salem than UVA-Wise so it probably wouldn't make that big a difference. The teams you mentioned all have plenty of fans willing to drive to Salem for a state championship game.

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1 hour ago, MT FAN 91 said:

Talking about a bigger gate draw at UVA-Wise would depend  alot on who they were  playing, teams from up north or east will probably travel better to Salem than UVA-Wise so it probably wouldn't make that big a difference. The teams you mentioned all have plenty of fans willing to drive to Salem for a state championship game.

Maybe. But remember, over the years a lot of those schools usually don’t bring the big numbers like A Riverheads or Luenburg Central to Powell Valley. The big gate would come from locals fans.  How many locals would show up that probably wouldn’t travel to Salem. Didn’t Clintwood have to travel to Onancock one year? How many people do you think went from Clintwood to Onancock versus people from Onancock to Clintwood if the game had been played in Clintwood. I remember how packed the Clintwood-Bowling Green game was. There people from all over SWVA there. Even the standing fans were packed tight, you couldn’t hardly move.

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Whether the 1st round games break even or not is irrelevant to the VHSL making money, they get a big cut if the gate regardless of how well the host school does overall. 

The only reason this is being pushed is because NOVA and Tidewater want it. The VHSL won't make more money with fewer games 

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4 hours ago, ghos88t said:

Not necessarily. Some of these 1st round playoff barely make money after expenses. Hard to believe??????   Football in parts of Virginia is not big like in SWVA and they don’t have a lot of fan travel like we do.  This year’s 2D playoffs could have (6,7,8) teams with a 5-5 and 2 losing records. Northern Virginia 6D and 6B will probably have the same 6, 7, 8 team records. Richmond 5C could have 5, 6, 7, 8 with losing records. Bet these 3 2D playoff game involving 6, 7, 8 will have a larger attendance than the same 6D, or 6B, or 5C playoff games. Reclassification, especially 4, 5, and 6, will mean same number of teams, but fewer playoff spots, which means better playoff teams in the 5, 6, 7, and 8 spots, which probably means bigger gates than a lot of First Round break even or losing gates.  Remember, The Benjamins will always come first with the VHSL.

Think about this, D2 and D1 Championship Games, Graham or Union D2, Holston D1 at UVA-WIse instead of Salem, how bigger would the gate be?

Your right about football not being big in certain areas out East.  I was living near Hopewell when they were a powerhouse early 2000s and they would have 500 fans.  Went to a game Henrico vs Varina both teams ranked high Henrico with a receiver going to Mich St. and Varina had Michael Robinson who went to Penn State and there was less than a 1000 people there.  But everyone loved they're soccer though 🤮

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1 hour ago, ghos88t said:

Maybe. But remember, over the years a lot of those schools usually don’t bring the big numbers like A Riverheads or Luenburg Central to Powell Valley. The big gate would come from locals fans.  How many locals would show up that probably wouldn’t travel to Salem. Didn’t Clintwood have to travel to Onancock one year? How many people do you think went from Clintwood to Onancock versus people from Onancock to Clintwood if the game had been played in Clintwood. I remember how packed the Clintwood-Bowling Green game was. There people from all over SWVA there. Even the standing fans were packed tight, you couldn’t hardly move.

PV played a state title game on the peninsula in Onley, VA. The furthest possible point from BSG or damn near close to it in the state. 

And from what I remember, even in muddy, cold and rainy conditions PV had very good turnout. 

Edited by BigWinners
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12 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

PV played a state title game on the peninsula in Onley, VA. The furthest possible point from BSG or damn near close to it in the state. 

And from what I remember, even in muddy, cold and rainy conditions PV had very good turnout. 

Long time ago, but if I remember correctly, the radio announcers bragged about the hospitality they were shown, and that PV was given the home bleachers because they brought more fans.

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19 minutes ago, Union_Fan said:

Long time ago, but if I remember correctly, the radio announcers bragged about the hospitality they were shown, and that PV was given the home bleachers because they brought more fans.

All I remember is having to change socks at one point bc it was so cold and rainy and driving out there in a van we rented. And of course PV winning with ease by like 30. I was a kid but it was a great experience. Still the last time I was that far East in VA.

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On 10/25/2021 at 11:23 AM, GilesDavis4321 said:

Poor effort by the author. The discussion back in 2020 about going down to 3 classifications lasted about 30 seconds and it was shut down. Also, he wrote that the VHSL in 2013 switched from 3 classifications to 6. That's false. They simply renamed what they call the 6 categories or level of play. Since 1986, Virginia has always had 6 levels of play or categories or classifications or whatever you want to call them. They have had several names, Divs 1 through 6, Group 1A through 6A, and now, Class 1 through 6.  We will end up at 4 or 5. I hope 5. 6 is to much and 4 is to little.

In the article, the author inferred that as recent as 2012-13, VA only had 3 levels of play. That's false. We haven't had 3 levels since 1985. In 1985, we had A, AA, and AAA.

I guess I confused you by posting a Non-Football article in a football forum. At no time did the writer mention football or football state championships. And YES the VHSL had a 3 class system for all other sports EXCEPT football prior to 2013. By adding the 6 class system they increased the number of OVERALL sports state championships. It was an article about what the possible future of the VHSL will look like when the fall of 2023 comes. Why I referenced it was to make a suggestion that come 2023 Riverheads could be in a classification were they are no longer the big boy in the class whooping all the smaller kids butts. 

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