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On 1/10/2023 at 6:57 PM, SwvaOG said:

It is a shame to see athletic kids come through a program and not be utilized properly.  It truncates possibilities for that athlete.  Over the next 5-10 years we will see the phasing out of those coaches that simply refuse to adapt to their athletes.  Look no further than this year's region championship.  Tony Palmer said, "Shit, this is going to be a shoot-out, let me go straight Wildcat and get it to my best athlete 30+ times."  RV responded by not adapting/adjusting and managed to get it to their best athlete 2-3 times.  Graham wins by 21.  I see positive movement from Turner at Union....he is adapting to the talent he has.  Not enough but he is.  In today's day and age, it is simply unacceptable for coaching staffs not to be multiple....and be damn good at being multiple.  This is why no one is catching Graham for a while.  Tony gets it while everyone else is content to "run their system".  Tony adapts and isn't dead set on beating you a certain way.  Listen, if you switch coaching staffs Palmer wins a state championship with Ridgeview this year and he very well might have done it with Union.  That says a lot.

I agree with you!   Palmer is a heck of a coach.  Beavers was our best athlete hands down and should have touched the ball a minimum of 15 times a game. So many ways they could have got him the ball.  Ridgeview will never get any farther than they have in the past til they get a coach that can adjust to what players he has.  I for one hope O’Quinn does not leave but could not blame him if he did with our coach.  

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24 minutes ago, Packman said:

I agree with you!   Palmer is a heck of a coach.  Beavers was our best athlete hands down and should have touched the ball a minimum of 15 times a game. So many ways they could have got him the ball.  Ridgeview will never get any farther than they have in the past til they get a coach that can adjust to what players he has.  I for one hope O’Quinn does not leave but could not blame him if he did with our coach.  

If O'Quinn stays it will hurt his development.  Period.  No doubts about it.  Maybe he can mitigate that by hitting camps hard but I think he plays sports year round so I'm not so sure he will get the next level development he needs to play at D-1/2.  They are going to want to see varying throws and concepts, effective reading of the defense (RV doesn't currently employ 2nd and 3rd reads), hitting the check-downs (RV doesn't have those) and running various offensive schemes.  Hell, they have the kid jog to the sideline to get every play.  So much for the kid reading defenses.  That isn't the HC,OC or scheme that will get you to next level. Just my 2 cents.   

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On 1/10/2023 at 6:57 PM, SwvaOG said:

It is a shame to see athletic kids come through a program and not be utilized properly.  It truncates possibilities for that athlete.  Over the next 5-10 years we will see the phasing out of those coaches that simply refuse to adapt to their athletes.  Look no further than this year's region championship.  Tony Palmer said, "Shit, this is going to be a shoot-out, let me go straight Wildcat and get it to my best athlete 30+ times."  RV responded by not adapting/adjusting and managed to get it to their best athlete 2-3 times.  Graham wins by 21.  I see positive movement from Turner at Union....he is adapting to the talent he has.  Not enough but he is.  In today's day and age, it is simply unacceptable for coaching staffs not to be multiple....and be damn good at being multiple.  This is why no one is catching Graham for a while.  Tony gets it while everyone else is content to "run their system".  Tony adapts and isn't dead set on beating you a certain way.  Listen, if you switch coaching staffs Palmer wins a state championship with Ridgeview this year and he very well might have done it with Union.  That says a lot.

I agree with you on Grahams coaching staff they're gonna win alot of championships next 10 years while the rest of us are playing for second

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SWVAOG, I think you nailed it, in my opinion, with evolving.  That's really what its all about.  A coach can "stick to their system come he** or high water" or they can evolve.  Palmer has evolved.  He's evolved specifically on the offensive side of the football.  I think Tony was mediocre offensively when he arrived at Graham (just my opinion).  He's trended dramatically.....and I don't think that word is hyperbole, dramatically UP each year on the offensive side of the ball.  It's alarming really.  He's now very, very solid, from where he was in 2015 or 2016 on the offensive side of the football.  Defensively, Palmer started very good and is still dang good, but bottom line is......he's evolved and that's evidently not easy to do, because most coaches seem to not be able to do it.

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Palmer’s coaching staff has grown since that time as well which explains the evolution. There are more coaches with more perspectives. In some cases, I think he leads by getting out of the way. This is not a negative. I think it’s wise to let the experts do their thing and operate according to their expertise.
 It also helps with the talent level increasing at GHS. You can do more with more and greater athletes at different positions. I can see it as a good problem when you only have to worry about not messing it up. 

Edited by tornado99
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Not really an evolution. Matt Dixon was OC in 15,16,and 17. Tony has called the offense since 2018.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 1/13/2023 at 3:12 PM, SwvaOG said:

If O'Quinn stays it will hurt his development.  Period.  No doubts about it.  Maybe he can mitigate that by hitting camps hard but I think he plays sports year round so I'm not so sure he will get the next level development he needs to play at D-1/2.  They are going to want to see varying throws and concepts, effective reading of the defense (RV doesn't currently employ 2nd and 3rd reads), hitting the check-downs (RV doesn't have those) and running various offensive schemes.  Hell, they have the kid jog to the sideline to get every play.  So much for the kid reading defenses.  That isn't the HC,OC or scheme that will get you to next level. Just my 2 cents.   

I never understood having a kid run to the sidelines every play. That hurt Central Woodstock in the championship game as far as wasting precious time, they gave up a lot of time going to sidelines, huddling up & executing the play. Even if they could manage to score again after the 1st Q,  they didn’t have enough time left on the clock to catch up which was their own doing. They weren’t winning regardless but man, I don’t understand  coaching that does that. Like you said, how does the QB ever learn to read defenses? It’s a shame when a team has talent but not the coaching staff to get them to the next level or adapt to the talent they have. 

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On 1/13/2023 at 10:05 PM, Gridiron60 said:

I never understood having a kid run to the sidelines every play. That hurt Central Woodstock in the championship game as far as wasting precious time, they are up a lot of time going to sidelines, huddling up & executing the play. Even if they could manage to score again after the 1st Q,  they didn’t have enough time left on the clock to catch up which was their own doing. They weren’t winning regardless but man, I don’t understand  coaching that does that. Like you said, how does the QB ever learn to read defenses? It’s a shame when a team has talent but not the coaching staff to get them to the next level or adapt to the talent they have. 

The RV lunacy was compounded by lining up in spread formations and then not going no-huddle.  I'll wager that RV is the only team in the country that "runs" a spread and then brings the QB to the sideline and the OC isn't in the press box to see what the defense is doing. If you are a football schematic guy it will drive you freakin' crazy. 

 

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On 1/15/2023 at 12:05 PM, SwvaOG said:

The RV lunacy was compounded by lining up in spread formations and then not going no-huddle.  I'll wager that RV is the only team in the country that "runs" a spread and then brings the QB to the sideline and the OC isn't in the press box to see what the defense is doing. If you are a football schematic guy it will drive you freakin' crazy. 

 

4 seasons 3 different head coaches. All years where RV could have made deep playoff runs. The problem is bigger than the head coach. It goes all the way to the top. Hopefully the election this year can fix things, but I doubt it.

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On 1/13/2023 at 10:05 PM, Gridiron60 said:

I never understood having a kid run to the sidelines every play. That hurt Central Woodstock in the championship game as far as wasting precious time, they gave up a lot of time going to sidelines, huddling up & executing the play. Even if they could manage to score again after the 1st Q,  they didn’t have enough time left on the clock to catch up which was their own doing. They weren’t winning regardless but man, I don’t understand  coaching that does that. Like you said, how does the QB ever learn to read defenses? It’s a shame when a team has talent but not the coaching staff to get them to the next level or adapt to the talent they have. 

We got plays from the sideline at Appy in peanut football 35 years ago it kills me watching QB running to the sidelines every play I mean how hard can it be to just send play in with a receiver who doesn’t do anything else especially at Union 

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Running the QB to the sideline isn't necessarily a bad thing: gives the coach a chance to talk to the QB, and if you've got a good QB the opportunity to get his input on play calling but the O has to have a way to signal plays in and when necessary go fast. 

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There are pros and cons to both. Calling the play in the huddle is one way to make sure that everyone is on the same page. It does tend to take more time off the clock so if you are in a hurry that is not good. No huddle with signals or wristbands is great if you want to go a little bit faster but you increase the chance of kids not being on the same page (these are 15-18 year olds we are talking about). On top of that singles are pretty easy to steal so the other team could figure out whats coming and you are not only asking these kids to learn play names but also the single that goes with it. 

I would say no huddle is much faster and you get less delay of game penalties but I have noticed over the year that officials tend to start that play clock later if a team is huddling. So I guess that just depends on the crew

 

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1 hour ago, S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE said:

Just looking at the simple play-calling that's going on, it shouldn't be that difficult to create signs to save the running and control the speed of the game when need be.

The more simple they are the easier that are to steal. If they other side has a coach looking at that kind of stuff which I am sure most teams do. Usually you would have a live guy and at least one dummy guy sometimes 2 but now you have 3 coaches just sending in plays for offense you got 2 coaches in the box and at least 2 on defense.. unless you are Union and have 45 "coaches" on the side line you run out of coaches quick

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At Haysi Coach Colley signaled in the formation while a Back ran in the play. Worked well enough.

A lot of teams send in a numerical play # with a color code. So on the wrist bands they will have Red, White, and Blue - 21 Red may be Outside Zone, 21 Blue may be QB Counter, and 21 White may be Slot Bubble. OC signals in the formation and calls 21, as long as the player/s know which color we are on for this possession its fairly difficult for the defense to steal calls. 

A couple of seasons ago Eastside was signaling in things, seems like they had 3 coaches signaling things in (1 live, 2 dummy) and a couple of coaches working picture flip boards. Five coaches to signal in plays that didnt work, it was a mess.

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19 hours ago, redtiger said:

At Haysi Coach Colley signaled in the formation while a Back ran in the play. Worked well enough.

A lot of teams send in a numerical play # with a color code. So on the wrist bands they will have Red, White, and Blue - 21 Red may be Outside Zone, 21 Blue may be QB Counter, and 21 White may be Slot Bubble. OC signals in the formation and calls 21, as long as the player/s know which color we are on for this possession its fairly difficult for the defense to steal calls. 

A couple of seasons ago Eastside was signaling in things, seems like they had 3 coaches signaling things in (1 live, 2 dummy) and a couple of coaches working picture flip boards. Five coaches to signal in plays that didnt work, it was a mess.

Honestly wristband is the way to go. You can change numbers every week. You can send a player in with the number, signal it in, hold up numbers, or just yell it out. It takes more time for coaches to make said wrist band but that is the biggest down side. It is a lot better than having 5 coaches just to call your offense!

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Back to games we'd like to see, I'd like to see some more out of state matchups. We had a local team (Port St Lucie) play a team from Colorado last year, but it was one of the Kickoff Classic games and I'd guess corporate sponsors and TV probably footed the bill for most of the travel. A friend of mine is the OL coach at Pensacola Catholic and they hosted a team from Oklahoma. My buddy said the team from Oklahoma footed their own travel expenses including charter buses, hotels and meals for the 770 mile trip. I realize no teams from SWVA are ever going to participate in anything like that, but it would be interesting to see some more games scheduled with TN teams besides Union, Gate City and Abingdon. I remember when Graham played Greeneville a couple of times. 

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  • 1 month later...

I would like to see Union vs. Giles. That would be a great rivalry. 
 

Union vs Bluefield WV

Union vs Volunteer and/or Cherokee. I know Union would probably spank both teams right now. But my wife is a Volunteer alum and I am a Powell Valley alum. So it would be my sort of alma mater vs my wife’s alma mater. Cherokee has a lot of arrogance about them. They used to have a somewhat decent team. The wheels have fallen off the last few years. 
 

 

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On 1/17/2023 at 7:55 AM, redtiger said:

Running the QB to the sideline isn't necessarily a bad thing: gives the coach a chance to talk to the QB, and if you've got a good QB the opportunity to get his input on play calling but the O has to have a way to signal plays in and when necessary, go fast. 

It is a bad thing.  I've watched it for years at RV.  Here is why it was idiotic at RV:

1) They were supposed to be a spread offense but never let the QB read the defense.

2) They eliminated tempo as an option since the QB would only have 7-10 seconds once he released the huddle.

3) The QB doesn't get to communicate or discuss things with the rest of the offense because they give up 70% of the play clock so coach can run a play in.  This greatly limits his potential to be the leader a QB needs to be.

4) The OC can't read what the defense is doing because offense is never on the line pre-snap.

 

Once again, this is a concept that should be retired.  I've watched high school football in FL, GA, TX, MI, WV, VA and TN and I have only seen a QB run plays in in SWVA.  I played in SWVA years ago and not one team I played against did this (all used a WR).

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1) has nothing to do with running the QB to the sideline, that's on the OC.

2) Valid. If the QB is coming to the sideline then you cant run hurry up but going faster isn't always a great thing but ill agree it needs to be an option.

3) Inaccurate, QB can go to the sideline and still have time to talk w the other players, as long as the OC is on his game and doesn't take forever on the sideline.

4) its hard for a OC to make reads and change plays from the sideline, not impossible but idk that it makes that much difference and if the OC is doing his job Sunday - Thursday the QB can make those adjustments from the line of scrimmage. If he cant, that's on the OC

I've got no problem with the QB coming to the sideline myself, especially young QBs, but I wouldn't want the offense stuck having to do that. Flexibility is the key imo. 

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52 minutes ago, redtiger said:

1) has nothing to do with running the QB to the sideline, that's on the OC.

2) Valid. If the QB is coming to the sideline then you cant run hurry up but going faster isn't always a great thing but ill agree it needs to be an option.

3) Inaccurate, QB can go to the sideline and still have time to talk w the other players, as long as the OC is on his game and doesn't take forever on the sideline.

4) its hard for a OC to make reads and change plays from the sideline, not impossible but idk that it makes that much difference and if the OC is doing his job Sunday - Thursday the QB can make those adjustments from the line of scrimmage. If he cant, that's on the OC

I've got no problem with the QB coming to the sideline myself, especially young QBs, but I wouldn't want the offense stuck having to do that. Flexibility is the key imo. 

There is no advantage to using the QB to run in every play.  None.  It is an archaic thought process at best.  If it were advantageous it would be utilized more frequently and at higher levels.  It is never utilized at higher levels....in fact, the better orgs and professionals all want to do the exact things I mentioned that running the QB prohibits...specifically #4.  The only way its hard for the OC to make reads from the sidelines is because he doesn't give himself enough time to do so....and he should be in the press box anyway.  All of modern football is doing this or converting to it.  You don't huddle, you line up and see what the defense aligns to.....you analyze that pre-snap read and signal in the play.  All of this is defeated or seriously degraded by running your QB to the sidelines.  Also, every time you do that your QB runs 52 yards (26 there and 26 back) If there are 50 offensive snaps in a game that is 2600 yards of jogging by your QB that doesn't yield one net yard.  In a 10 game season that's 26,000 yards and 70% of play clock wasted. 

The single most ridiculous thing I've seen in football in the last ten years was RV doing this while showing 4 wide and 1 back with no TE package and having ZERO reads for the QB.....an extremely talented and smart QB by the way. The second most ridiculous thing I've seen offensively in the region was Gate City's offense and use of Carson Jenkins his senior year.  

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40 minutes ago, SwvaOG said:

There is no advantage to using the QB to run in every play.  None.  It is an archaic thought process at best.  If it were advantageous it would be utilized more frequently and at higher levels.  It is never utilized at higher levels....in fact, the better orgs and professionals all want to do the exact things I mentioned that running the QB prohibits...specifically #4.  The only way its hard for the OC to make reads from the sidelines is because he doesn't give himself enough time to do so....and he should be in the press box anyway.  All of modern football is doing this or converting to it.  You don't huddle, you line up and see what the defense aligns to.....you analyze that pre-snap read and signal in the play.  All of this is defeated or seriously degraded by running your QB to the sidelines.  Also, every time you do that your QB runs 52 yards (26 there and 26 back) If there are 50 offensive snaps in a game that is 2600 yards of jogging by your QB that doesn't yield one net yard.  In a 10 game season that's 26,000 yards and 70% of play clock wasted. 

The single most ridiculous thing I've seen in football in the last ten years was RV doing this while showing 4 wide and 1 back with no TE package and having ZERO reads for the QB.....an extremely talented and smart QB by the way. The second most ridiculous thing I've seen offensively in the region was Gate City's offense and use of Carson Jenkins his senior year.  

Higher levels and lower levels are different, one isn't necessarily better than the other. The Pros have a radio in the QBs headset which makes communication really easy, not so in high school.

Higher levels have higher level players, not every QB can process that info quickly and efficiently. Some need time and you cant do that while standing on the line of scrimmage and while trying to communicate that info to the other 10 players on the field. 

Reads from the sideline aren't easy, the line of sight prevents getting a clear picture of what the defense is doing. The higher you go the better the view, hence most fans not sitting at the bottom of the bleachers and why nobody wants to sit on the sideline in their lawn chair. Having the OC up there is great but most high school programs have a hard time finding a full staff of competent and knowledgeable coaches, the OC may be needed for other duties on the sideline like making sure his QB has his head on straight, helping the Defense with personnel, he may double as DBs coach, etc, etc. 

You mentioned the QB running to the sidelines, what about the WRs running routes all over the field? They need a break and that's hard to do when you're in a hurry up offense. Running the plays in with a WR is great but when you're 4 wide, who's gonna run the play in? Your #5 WR? Do you really want him on the field over your starters? There's a tradeoff and you have to decide if its worth it for your team.  

You talk about trends, yes the trend was 4 wide shotgun hurry up offenses, but that's already changing. Teams are incorporating more under center sets and grinding on defenses a little more. In football nothing is new, including hurry up direct snap spread offenses, the next trend will be to slow things down so that 16 year olds can process what they're doing instead of going as fast as possible trying to confuse another 16 year old that was probably already a little confused to begin with. If youre running sound schemes it doesn't matter as much what the Defense is doing.

I isn't saying RV did things the right way, I'm saying you're speaking in a very broad sense and while you're generally right you also wrong on several points. 

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