Tazewell at Grundy

[THS6805]

Do think this game going be played? 

[EH31]

Yes. Friday night 7:00

[Real Sasquatch]

This one could be interesting .

[Bulldogs52]

Thing that makes my ass wanna chew tobacco, why the hell don’t we send someone back on punt returns? Maybe the special teams coach will join the conversation!

[VHSLhelper]

Nothing stopping it on the Grundy end - still doing the whole Homecoming stuff

 

[cityofRaven]

1 hour ago, VHSLhelper said:

Nothing stopping it on the Grundy end - still doing the whole Homecoming stuff

 

Will it be at Peking or Dairy Queen? And will Craig Plymal be signing autographs?

[Real Sasquatch]

2 hours ago, Bulldogs52 said:

Thing that makes my ass wanna chew tobacco, why the hell don’t we send someone back on punt returns? Maybe the special teams coach will join the conversation!

I agree.  At least send somebody back there to make a fair catch or down the ball before it bounces another 20 yards or something.  I have been baffled by that myself.  They don't even put a man back there, much less try to return it.  Also, if you're gonna do that, at least rush the punter, they aren't even rushing the punter.  Head scratcher for sure.

[Liam McPoyle]

I'm not saying I agree with the strategy, but here is one person's defense of it.

"If you're a good offensive team, punts should neither be rushed nor returned

This year, the super bowl was won because of a muffed punt.

We constantly hear coaches talk about the turnover battle, but not all turnovers are the same. A RB fumble that's not returned is basically a spot turn over. Meanwhile, a muffed punt (or one that hits a blocker in the back of the leg) can be the equivalent of a 60 yard gain for the punting team.

Then we have rush issues. These include running into or roughing the punter, which automatically (roughing) or often (running into) result in first downs at a time the other team's trying to give you the ball back. Or they make it short and fourth and now your defense has to make another stop. There's also jumping offsides, which gives tons of free first downs. And there are fakes, which work against teams not playing it safe but trying to rush the punt.

There are also defensive issues on punts like blocks in the back, and holding.

Keep in mind this is all happening at a time when the defense is actively trying to give you the ball back.

So for all this risk, we get, what? The one in a hundred punt block (which usually happens because your team is so much better than the other one that your special teamers are five stars riding the bench)? The incredibly rare decent return? A fair catch that saves about two first downs worth of yardage? That might have mattered in the three yards and a cloud of dust, 10-3 final score days of football, but these days it's just not worth the risk.

Sit in your base defense, don't rush, let them kick you the ball and let it roll dead. Start your offense void of risk, and save the time practicing punt returns to practice more of your offense."

[GilesBandanaMan]

I agree with the above on the argument as to why you just play your base defense. I would send 2 guys at the punter though. Not an all out punt block attempt, but 2 guys in case the punter bobbles the punt or its a bad snap, and this happens somewhat frequently in HS Ball. The other exception would be for example.....Bradshaw. I'm putting him back there and taking my chances because in that rare exception, the threat is real.

[Union_Fan]

Depending on the strengths of your team, this could be very valid.

[SpillBoss]

3 minutes ago, Liam McPoyle said:

I'm not saying I agree with the strategy, but here is one person's defense of it.

"If you're a good offensive team punts should neither be rushed nor returned

Not being accusatory. What constitutes a good offensive team? Tazewell scored 34 points on two teams that are currently 9-1 and scored 86 points on two teams that are currently 1-8. Is that basically having trouble scoring on good teams or bad (Taz) defense? Tazewell should take any advantage they can to score points. Having one or two players return punts or even fair catch and save yardage is a plus. Starting your offense from inside the 20 every series can tire down the offense as well, especially if some play both sides.

[Real Sasquatch]

It is what it is, I guess.

[Liam McPoyle]

Marion does this exact same thing (along with many other unconventional strategies). In Ginn's first two seasons, he'd frequently rush 11, but I don't recall him even attempting to block a punt this season.

[BigWinners]

1 hour ago, Liam McPoyle said:

I'm not saying I agree with the strategy, but here is one person's defense of it.

"If you're a good offensive team, punts should neither be rushed nor returned

This year, the super bowl was won because of a muffed punt.

We constantly hear coaches talk about the turnover battle, but not all turnovers are the same. A RB fumble that's not returned is basically a spot turn over. Meanwhile, a muffed punt (or one that hits a blocker in the back of the leg) can be the equivalent of a 60 yard gain for the punting team.

Then we have rush issues. These include running into or roughing the punter, which automatically (roughing) or often (running into) result in first downs at a time the other team's trying to give you the ball back. Or they make it short and fourth and now your defense has to make another stop. There's also jumping offsides, which gives tons of free first downs. And there are fakes, which work against teams not playing it safe but trying to rush the punt.

There are also defensive issues on punts like blocks in the back, and holding.

Keep in mind this is all happening at a time when the defense is actively trying to give you the ball back.

So for all this risk, we get, what? The one in a hundred punt block (which usually happens because your team is so much better than the other one that your special teamers are five stars riding the bench)? The incredibly rare decent return? A fair catch that saves about two first downs worth of yardage? That might have mattered in the three yards and a cloud of dust, 10-3 final score days of football, but these days it's just not worth the risk.

Sit in your base defense, don't rush, let them kick you the ball and let it roll dead. Start your offense void of risk, and save the time practicing punt returns to practice more of your offense."

You don’t have to even attempt to catch a punt. Just down jt after it hits and it saves you the potential of a muff and still can save 20+ yards

[Real Sasquatch]

2 hours ago, BigWinners said:

You don’t have to even attempt to catch a punt. Just down jt after it hits and it saves you the potential of a muff and still can save 20+ yards

This^^.  99.99% of teams send somebody back.  0.01% do not ..  I think the 99.99% may be on to something  

[Union_Fan]

6 hours ago, BigWinners said:

You don’t have to even attempt to catch a punt. Just down jt after it hits and it saves you the potential of a muff and still can save 20+ yards

Just to play devil's advocate here.

If you have someone back to NOT catch but stop the ball, wouldn't that be more dangerous?

That would imply the ball is moving and bouncing around, which is far more unpredictable to judge and handle. As soon as it is touched by the receiving team, not controlled, but simply touched, it is live and can be recovered by the kicking team.

Wouldn't this increase the odds of a muff?

If it is "safe" for the receiving team to down, that would imply the ball has stopped moving. Which would negate the reason for the kicking team to put a person back there to prevent loss of yards.

And for the record, I'm very much in favor of someone back to receive unless I don't have confidence in my players to do so. In that case, it is better to let the ball roll than lose a possession.

[stu_bean]

9 hours ago, Liam McPoyle said:

Marion does this exact same thing (along with many other unconventional strategies). In Ginn's first two seasons, he'd frequently rush 11, but I don't recall him even attempting to block a punt this season.

Not the best example for success there

[Liam McPoyle]

1 hour ago, stu_bean said:

Not the best example for success there

Marion's opponents almost never punt, so I think it's working.

[Bulldogs52]

Guess special teams coach got new job duties to worry about I reckon! At least we’re kicking deep on kickoffs! 🤷‍♂️ 

[BigWinners]

8 hours ago, Union_Fan said:

Just to play devil's advocate here.

If you have someone back to NOT catch but stop the ball, wouldn't that be more dangerous?

That would imply the ball is moving and bouncing around, which is far more unpredictable to judge and handle. As soon as it is touched by the receiving team, not controlled, but simply touched, it is live and can be recovered by the kicking team.

Wouldn't this increase the odds of a muff?

If it is "safe" for the receiving team to down, that would imply the ball has stopped moving. Which would negate the reason for the kicking team to put a person back there to prevent loss of yards.

And for the record, I'm very much in favor of someone back to receive unless I don't have confidence in my players to do so. In that case, it is better to let the ball roll than lose a possession.

I just mean fall on it after the first bounce and not let it roll 20 more yards. Or get down on a knee field it like a second baseman, anything to not give up extra yardage if you can’t find a kid who can reliably catch punts which can be tricky. 
 

it also doesn’t allow teams to waste a bunch of time if you’re behind and need to save time. At the HS level I can maybe understand it, but at college or above you should have one kid who can catch punts. 

[GilesBandanaMan]

2 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

I just mean fall on it after the first bounce and not let it roll 20 more yards. Or get down on a knee field it like a second baseman, anything to not give up extra yardage if you can’t find a kid who can reliably catch punts which can be tricky. 

Football teams recruit soccer players for field goals and extra points (except Union) and in this scenario, football coaches need to go the baseball team and recruit the shortstop or 3rd basemen. I would bet most short stops are already on the football team though.

[BigWinners]

Just now, BandanaVTDavis4321 said:

Football teams recruit soccer players for field goals and extra points (except Union) and in this scenario, football coaches need to go the baseball team and recruit the shortstop or 3rd basemen. I would bet most short stops are already on the football team though.

Just get in front of it and fall on it if nothing else. As a coach I’m just not sure I could fathom giving up 20-30 yards every single punts as opposed to 2-5 muffs a year. 

[GilesBandanaMan]

20 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

Just get in front of it and fall on it if nothing else. As a coach I’m just not sure I could fathom giving up 20-30 yards every single punts as opposed to 2-5 muffs a year. 

I agree. If a team punts 5 times per game and you let the ball roll 5 times and those 5 punts roll for 20 to 25 yds a pop on average, you've lost 100 to 125 total yds.

[Bulldogs52]

But anyway, Tazewelld needs to bounce back this week and get back on track!

[Real Sasquatch]

9 minutes ago, Bulldogs52 said:

But anyway, Tazewelld needs to bounce back this week and get back on track!

Agree.  It'll be hard to get focused after a loss like that.  Lebanon and Virginia High will be big games for them.  Grundy is no pushover