Injuries and prevention or treatment strategies

[tornado99]

Hello, guys. I don’t mean from a medical perspective in the title, but from a strategic standpoint. 
Do you think there seems to be more injuries than there used to be and/or more chronic among athletes? Football is a rough game, but I wonder how much is that they are more widely diagnosed or more to do with changes in training, treatment and response? I know concussions are more often identified. My theory with some joint injuries might be related to overuse or possibly putting on too much muscle or size, combined with turf fields. Reading about the frequency of back issues seems like it has increased. Finally, do you rest and recover by sitting out some games or play through the pain. (I know the game importance is a factor.) 

What do you all think overall? Are there more injuries now than before, despite less participation? Are more just identified and talked about?

[Unchained]

1 hour ago, tornado99 said:

Hello, guys. I don’t mean from a medical perspective in the title, but from a strategic standpoint. 
Do you think there seems to be more injuries than there used to be and/or more chronic among athletes? Football is a rough game, but I wonder how much is that they are more widely diagnosed or more to do with changes in training, treatment and response? I know concussions are more often identified. My theory with some joint injuries might be related to overuse or possibly putting on too much muscle or size, combined with turf fields. Reading about the frequency of back issues seems like it has increased. Finally, do you rest and recover by sitting out some games or play through the pain. (I know the game importance is a factor.) 

What do you all think overall? Are there more injuries now than before, despite less participation? Are more just identified and talked about?

Alot of it is that back in the day when you were injured, you often didn't report it or simply played through it. There's a toughness, and masculinity that was expected then. Turf also indeed has been a contributor.

[ehcwasp]

Would be interested to see a study of turf and grass at the average high school level, as it relates to injuries.  I would think it would still show more injuries on turf, but feel like the numbers would be skewed more towards about even.

I know what the studies that are out there say on the topic, but I am not sure that those studies correlate with the high school game.  I doubt they studied the average high school grass field, as those are not in the same universe as a manicured collegiate or professional grass surface where there are professional groundskeepers taking care of those surfaces.  Grass fields need certain yearly maintenance such as aerating, top dressing, overseeding, and rolling.  Seems like a lot of places do not complete that maintenance as often as it should be.  Personally, I think a well maintained Bermuda grass field is as nice as any turf out there.

[Union_Fan]

1 hour ago, ehcwasp said:

Would be interested to see a study of turf and grass at the average high school level, as it relates to injuries.  I would think it would still show more injuries on turf, but feel like the numbers would be skewed more towards about even.

I know what the studies that are out there say on the topic, but I am not sure that those studies correlate with the high school game.  I doubt they studied the average high school grass field, as those are not in the same universe as a manicured collegiate or professional grass surface where there are professional groundskeepers taking care of those surfaces.  Grass fields need certain yearly maintenance such as aerating, top dressing, overseeding, and rolling.  Seems like a lot of places do not complete that maintenance as often as it should be.  Personally, I think a well maintained Bermuda grass field is as nice as any turf out there.

They exist for the HS level. Here's a summary of one from 2021.

https://profiles.wustl.edu/en/publications/injury-incidence-is-higher-on-artificial-turf-compared-with-natur/

Turf is the devil when it comes to injuries regardless of the sport or level.

Growing up, I remember all sorts of football related injuries, but they were sprains and broken legs, ankles and arms. I can't recall a single knee injury.

I could have missed one, but I don't remember a single Union player tearing an ACL on grass in 16 years.

[Gridiron60]

I think turf is a contributing factor for some type of injuries like ACL or knee issues. I also think back in the day, we played through it a lot of times whereas today, in general kids (not all kids)  aren’t as tough. They’re a soft generation but there are exceptions like the Blevins kid from Graham that played on broken leg, Meadows kid played with broken hand , and that kid from Union with herniated disk. 

We have become more knowledgeable medically speaking as far as best practices for diagnosis, treatment, & response to injuries. That’s a good thing, we don’t kids facing permanent consequences for not dealing with injuries in the best possible way. I do think kids are encouraged and often made to rest and recover or sit out a game or two if needed unlike 20 or 30 years ago when unless something was broken, we played through it.  

[ehcwasp]

1 hour ago, Union_Fan said:

They exist for the HS level. Here's a summary of one from 2021.

https://profiles.wustl.edu/en/publications/injury-incidence-is-higher-on-artificial-turf-compared-with-natur/

Turf is the devil when it comes to injuries regardless of the sport or level.

Growing up, I remember all sorts of football related injuries, but they were sprains and broken legs, ankles and arms. I can't recall a single knee injury.

I could have missed one, but I don't remember a single Union player tearing an ACL on grass in 16 years.

Yes, those Bermuda fields like Bullitt Park and Va High are nearly immaculate surfaces.

[FootballFan77]

I think it’s a mixture of all the things mentioned and the fact they strength train all year and heavy weights are pushed. I also think that a lot of athletes play multiple sports. They also compete in 7 on 7, attend camps and a lot of the schools around here have guys who don’t come off the field which was not how it was when I was in school. 

[BigWinners]

Turf sucks, it should be almost illegal to use it for HS kids unless it’s some crazy circumstance where grass won’t go. 

[Union_Fan]

7 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

Turf sucks, it should be almost illegal to use it for HS kids unless it’s some crazy circumstance where grass won’t go. 

What does grass growing have any thing to do with it? Couldn't grow at Riggs stadium and they never got turf. 😂

[Fairlawncat]

One of the primary culprits for increased knee injuries that is even More of a culprit than turf is 2 things.

1. Weight training to the quads at an overwhelmingly more difficult and advanced level compared to 1980 or 1985. Ligaments and tendons are your joint "braces" that support the muscles attachment to the bone. When the muscle is so large (based on body frame size) for that given body frame, that puts massive amounts of tension on ligaments. Don't believe it? We've seen a massive surge in Shoulder Injuries over the past 30 years as well in All Sports.

2. More time on the field for the athlete. In 1980, a week of "two a days," maybe a 4 day summer camp, and 11 weeks of football and it's over. Now, 30 to 33 weeks of "field time." Whether that's winter workouts, springs workouts, 7 on 7s, summer pre camp, summer camp, preseason, then the season. The athlete is simply stressing their ligaments 3 times as long as they were 30 ago.

The above is from an orthopedic surgeon I had a discussion with on this a few years ago. Yes, turf does increase risk, and turf adds fuel to the fire for the 2 items listed above, but the 2 items listed above are actually more impactful in knee injury risk than simply turf fields alone. And again, it's not just knee injury risk, shoulder injury and labrum tears have skyrocketed. 

[tornado99]

50 minutes ago, Fairlawncat said:

One of the primary culprits for increased knee injuries that is even More of a culprit than turf is 2 things.

1. Weight training to the quads at an overwhelmingly more difficult and advanced level compared to 1980 or 1985. Ligaments and tendons are your joint "braces" that support the muscles attachment to the bone. When the muscle is so large (based on body frame size) for that given body frame, that puts massive amounts of tension on ligaments. Don't believe it? We've seen a massive surge in Shoulder Injuries over the past 30 years as well in All Sports.

2. More time on the field for the athlete. In 1980, a week of "two a days," maybe a 4 day summer camp, and 11 weeks of football and it's over. Now, 30 to 33 weeks of "field time." Whether that's winter workouts, springs workouts, 7 on 7s, summer pre camp, summer camp, preseason, then the season. The athlete is simply stressing their ligaments 3 times as long as they were 30 ago.

The above is from an orthopedic surgeon I had a discussion with on this a few years ago. Yes, turf does increase risk, and turf adds fuel to the fire for the 2 items listed above, but the 2 items listed above are actually more impactful in knee injury risk than simply turf fields alone. And again, it's not just knee injury risk, shoulder injury and labrum tears have skyrocketed. 

So, in a sense, short-term optimization through training and practice might be gained at the price of longevity and durability. Performance at the cost of health?

I’m not saying kids are using steroids or PEDs, but I imagine it’s a similar trade off as an adult taking them to put on more muscle such as bodybuilders/power lifters or even NFL linemen who have shorter lifespans due to either drugs themselves or sheer size that isn’t really healthy. 
 

I know I have told the tale of a several players that I remember who either experienced knee injuries or lost lateral quickness (or both) by gaining too much muscle or size within a year.

Thanks for the explanation from a medical expert.

[BigWinners]

3 hours ago, Union_Fan said:

What does grass growing have any thing to do with it? Couldn't grow at Riggs stadium and they never got turf. 😂

Just glass shards, nails and needles. Every team had to get their tetanus and hepatitis shots before playing at Appalachia lol. What a dump! heh 

[1inStripes]

I will be honest, I am worried about Honakers turf after Friday.  There are obvious wrinkles/depressions every 5 yards.  Im not sure if it was seemed between the 2/3 and 7/8 yard lines, or at the usual 0/5 yard lines, but this made me think it was 2/3 and 7/8 yard lines.  I hope it never leads to injuries, but it seemed very unusual to the naked eye when thinking about turf fields I have been on in the past, or watched games at.

[BigWinners]

1 minute ago, 1inStripes said:

I will be honest, I am worried about Honakers turf after Friday.  There are obvious wrinkles/depressions every 5 yards.  Im not sure if it was seemed between the 2/3 and 7/8 yard lines, or at the usual 0/5 yard lines, but this made me think it was 2/3 and 7/8 yard lines.  I hope it never leads to injuries, but it seemed very unusual to the naked eye when thinking about turf fields I have been on in the past, or watched games at.

Could you petition to the region or state? If it’s that bumpy, it’s an injury risk and HS kids need to have the safest surface possible. 

[Fairlawncat]

5 minutes ago, tornado99 said:

So, in a sense, short-term optimization through training and practice might be gained at the price of longevity and durability. Performance at the cost of health?

I’m not saying kids are using steroids or PEDs, but I imagine it’s a similar trade off as an adult taking them to put on more muscle such as bodybuilders/power lifters or even NFL linemen who have shorter lifespans due to either drugs themselves or sheer size that isn’t really healthy. 
 

I know I have told the tale of a several players that I remember who either experienced knee injuries or lost lateral quickness (or both) by gaining too much muscle or size within a year.

Thanks for the explanation from a medical expert.

Good points tornado99. My understanding is this as it relates to steroids and I'm talking about Steroids which falls under PEDs, but the two are different in one major way regarding how they protect joints and ligaments. The weight lifting revelation, knowledge, and technology took off in the late 70s/early 80s for the NFL and college, but for High Schools, it took off a touch later in the mid 80s, and there wasn't a skyrocketing in knee and shoulder injuries in the NFL until the late 1990s because the rate of actual Steroids was so prevalent in the NFL and MLB and among college players back in the 80s and up until the mid 90s. Yes, the steroids help build massive muscle (too much for most body frame sizes) but the steroids also helped Decrease injury chances, steroids offer a joint/ligaments protective effect if you remain on them, so it was a wash. The problem? 

In the late 90s, advanced lab technology surpassed or caught up with strength and conditioning technology and knowledge, and the use of actual Steroids started to go way down among professional athletes and college players, BUT the use of PEDs (non steroids, but still PEDs that build muscle mass) became the new thing, so muscle mass and weight training technology supported massive muscle growth, but a sudden halting of the protective effect of actual Steroids being replaced by other PEDs which could evade lab testing. What did we get? Major increases in knee and shoulder injuries.

The above is the way it was explained to me. I'm no doctor or surgeon. The timing of all of the above also goes with more time on the field in the office season stressing those joints out. As weight training knowledge and PED knowledge (increased muscle mass with substances that are no longer pure steroids) has increased, the off season stuff in football from winter to spring workouts to 7 on 7s and camps has coincided to make the perfect mix of ugly circumstances that contribute to knee and shoulder injuries 

Another simple way to think of the time component and just taking away PED/steroid stuff. 1985. Fewer teams in HS in America make the playoffs. So, a quick 10 week season for many kids. Here's an example. Team A in 1985. A 4 day camp in summer where they are on the field for 24 hours. They go 6 and 4 and don't make the playoffs and the games are 48 minutes playing time x 10, so that's 480 minutes or 8 hours on the field and if you had the summer camp hours, that's 32 hours total. Figure 2 hour practices Monday through Thursday x 10 and that's 80 hours for the season. Add all the crazy math above and you are getting about 112 hours of Total Time that ACL is stressed on for one year.

If you take Team A above and place them 40 years into the future in 2025, I can assure you those 112 hours total "joint stress time" for an entire year back in 1985 has at aminimum doubled, and it's probably tripled for some of the major or better HS programs. So, literally just right there by timing method, the odds of injury exposure have doubled or tripled in some cases.

[1inStripes]

Just now, BigWinners said:

Could you petition to the region or state? If it’s that bumpy, it’s an injury risk and HS kids need to have the safest surface possible. 

Im not gonna say I inspected it down on the field. It was just very obvious from an elevated viewpoint.  

[Union_Fan]

11 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

Just glass shards, nails and needles. Every team had to get their tetanus and hepatitis shots before playing at Appalachia lol. What a dump! heh 

Well, dump might be a little strong. I prefer to say that it had character. Haha 

[Bcats]

I been ignoring and ignoring and I'm going to try my best to keep ignoring what's right in front of us. High school football i can't get enough of it. I watched the pros and college but high school is the purest form of football to me where the kids grow up with each other and they actually care and love another, yes kids transfer and some don't like each other but it's still the purest form. My Friday nights usually consist of me trying to keep up with about 20 games, whether on NFHS, YouTube, WCYB or the radio I'm going back and forth all night long. I keep brushing off the very low roster numbers in SWVA as it being that the schools are small. What i can't brush off is i went and watched the replay of Dobyns-Bennett vs Oak Ridge TN, both teams play at the highest division in TN 6a, Oak Ridge is currently the 5th ranked team in class 6, I bet Oak Ridge didn't even have 50 kids on their roster and DB is sitting right at around 50 when before covid both teams had rosters well over 80. Lord Willing what is football going to look like in a couple years, are we headed to a condensed 7 or 8 game season where some schools football program just folds, are we headed for 7 on 7 or 8 on 8 man football 

[tornado99]

9 hours ago, Bcats said:

I been ignoring and ignoring and I'm going to try my best to keep ignoring what's right in front of us. High school football i can't get enough of it. I watched the pros and college but high school is the purest form of football to me where the kids grow up with each other and they actually care and love another, yes kids transfer and some don't like each other but it's still the purest form. My Friday nights usually consist of me trying to keep up with about 20 games, whether on NFHS, YouTube, WCYB or the radio I'm going back and forth all night long. I keep brushing off the very low roster numbers in SWVA as it being that the schools are small. What i can't brush off is i went and watched the replay of Dobyns-Bennett vs Oak Ridge TN, both teams play at the highest division in TN 6a, Oak Ridge is currently the 5th ranked team in class 6, I bet Oak Ridge didn't even have 50 kids on their roster and DB is sitting right at around 50 when before covid both teams had rosters well over 80. Lord Willing what is football going to look like in a couple years, are we headed to a condensed 7 or 8 game season where some schools football program just folds, are we headed for 7 on 7 or 8 on 8 man football 

Another topic for another day, but I do like the idea discussed before of the condensed version and season when working with youth leagues for teaching purposes, especially those struggling with numbers.  

[BigWinners]

13 hours ago, Union_Fan said:

Well, dump might be a little strong. I prefer to say that it had character. Haha 

Nope any chance I can get to take a dig at Appalachia, ima take it. Theyre just lucky the state or county didnt condemn that dump while they played there! lol

[Fairlawncat]

5 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

Nope any chance I can get to take a dig at Appalachia, ima take it. Theyre just lucky the state or county didnt condemn that dump while they played there! lol

I've read some of your swipes at Appy over the last 2 years. I don't think you would have the decency to even pee on Appy if they were 5 feet from you and burning in flames (Ron White, Circa 1998).

[BigWinners]

23 hours ago, Fairlawncat said:

I've read some of your swipes at Appy over the last 2 years. I don't think you would have the decency to even pee on Appy if they were 5 feet from you and burning in flames (Ron White, Circa 1998).

That is correct. 
 

 

(It’s all in jest, I actually harbor no ill will towards them and hate how far the town has fallen but yeah they stink, Riggs was a dump and the parking was terrible!)

[redtiger]

Im convinced that turf is terrible from a health perspective, but increased size speed of athletes is also a contributing factor. Another is the style of play now, with spread formations there is more of the field utilized every play which magnifies these issues. A WR catches a screen pass and he has a LB coming at him with at a 15 yd run, a CB from 5 yds away(no big deal) and a Safety with a 15 yd run. Those distances magnify the force being applied on the hit and on the lower bodies of players when they cut. 

Lets do some math, a Safety compared to 30 years ago :   (Safety + 20lbs) x .5  second faster 40 yd dash time + 15 yd run + turf = injuries 

[tornado99]

Natural growth aside, do you think putting on so much size helps or hurts performance? I know if you do it perfectly it’s possible, but I can’t think of many that put on size and sacrifice speed.

[Union_Fan]

26 minutes ago, tornado99 said:

Natural growth aside, do you think putting on so much size helps or hurts performance? I know if you do it perfectly it’s possible, but I can’t think of many that put on size and sacrifice speed.

Maybe on average kids are bigger, stronger, faster, but I remember some pretty big, strong kids 30 years ago that never got injured.

I have often thought about things in a completely different direction, environmental factors.

I've wondered if pollution, chemicals, preservatives, etc...in our air, food and water have had impacts on the cellular level as kids grow. Maybe muscle, bone, ligaments and tendons aren't as "natural" as they once were. Causing them to fail easier.

This is really morbid, but my dad grew up with a guy that later became a funeral home director. He said they didn't have to use as much embalming fluid as they did when he first started, in the 1960's, because the bodies were already partially preserved. He made that statement in the early 2000's.

Now, let that sink in a moment. 🤢