Huntercav

C'dadX3: I am with you on all issues you mentioned. Football can be like a relationship with an alcoholic in that one seldom gets out of it what they put in it. There is NO question that your children did not get from football anywhere near what they put into football. Whether or not my son does is a "work in progress." I was one of the lucky ones in that I got out of it WAY more than I dreamed was possible. From the day my mother bought me a Sears and Roebuck Superbowl Championship edition (KC Chiefs, yes, I'm dating myself) football equipment set (complete with the plastic helmet, shoulder pads, pants, and Len Dawson jersey number), I've been in love. I still have that same passion for the game, but my playing days taught me about the dark side of the sport. Yes, the political BS that comes with it. The kid who plays because of his dad's status or the kid who doesn't play because of his dad. The kid who fails and plays versus the kid who succeeds and stands on the sideline. Time has not gone by too fast for me. I am not withdrawn enough (yet) to forget the conflicts, the heartache, the waiting in the car for 30 minutes to an hour because practice ran over. The scrimmage that started 45 minutes late and the fact that I no longer loan my son to football in the Fall for three or four months. It's a year round GRIND for everybody, but that intermittent reinforcement (there's that ugly alcoholic reference) keeps everybody (the kid, the coach, the parent, the fan) coming back for more. I found through my experiences, from Pop Warner to Marshall University, that football is a whore. One can indulge themselves in its pleasures, but in the end you owe it something. Sometimes a little and sometimes a lot, but it NEVER owes you a damn thing! Blessed is the person who doesn't realize that! As for successful programs promoting kids for college, I couldn't agree more. That's why I mentioned Marrs and Graham. Here's a coach promoting my son who plays for another school because in his words: "I owe it to kids to try and help them." I think all successful programs have at their core an entire community supporting the school. That's businesses, parents (and not just when their kid plays), coaches, teachers, administrations, former players, AD's and so on. Yes, the genesis of that success may find its seed in one unique man like Richard "Dick" Gunnoe in White Sulphur Springs, but it normally takes an entire village to support a team. It's great to run through an inflatable helmet when you're winning, but the air goes out real quick when failure enters the equation. Success breeds success and failure breeds failure, and that's why the winning programs have an entire CULTURE, which includes playing beyond high school, surrounding their team. CCHS has not had that, but there's hope that the foundation for a winning tradition has already been built and your boys helped build it. We may never know the extent of our contribution, our lack thereof, but we can walk away feeling good that we did contribute. I appreciate the contributions you, your wife, and boys made to the program. Whether that carries over to any tangible differences in the overall scheme of things is ALMOST irrelevant.

I wanted to add how classy and helpful Doug Marrs has been with my son's recruitment. Most all of the D-1 schools got his name from Coach Marrs. Again, another positive example of a coach in our area who is VERY well respected by those who actually do recruit SW Virginia. He is well connected and his effort to help a kid at CCHS is admirable to say the least. I can't thank him enough! Most folks don't accept or understand that recruiting is still about relationships schools have with high school coaches. Sure, Rivals, Scouts, camps, and television exposure (Channel 12's Spotlight game of the week between Grayson and Carroll got my son noticed by a coordinator at Duke who was watching the highlights-so you never know!) all contribute, but if a kid can play they will find them-anywhere!

I didn't want to hi-jack another thread about Richlands, so I'll start my own. I've been reading the board for years, but have limited my responses because most of it turns into a pissing contest that nobody ever wins and it all reads more like an elementary school argument than "fans" sharing opinions on a message-board. Hopefully, folks can take this post in the spirit it's given-to give first hand information which is TOTALLY unbiased and truthful. I'll preface by stating that I am not a Richlands fan, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for their program and coach. I don't know any fans of the program other than the folks who post on this forum, so I'll reserve comment. My son plays for CCHS and has been blessed enough to get attention from many D-1 programs. Ironically, we have shared the Richlands film with several of them for many reasons, primarily to show him competing against a terrific football team. I can tell you without fail that EVERY school has mentioned nothing but the utmost respect for our coach, our effort, and the entire Richlands program-including the fans! #44 was the BEST player on the field in our game-period! I can tell you that the list another poster mentioned doesn't include some other MAJOR programs looking at this kid. I have no idea about his grades or character, but those issues are for others to evaluate and not on a message-board . As I've stated in my few posts, it blows my mind that anybody would get on a message board and disparage a kid, a coach, or a school. The bottom-line should be to celebrate ANY kid's success and the opportunity which they may have to further their education through the best game in the world-football. Stop the BS about the SW District, players being recruited to high schools, dislike for coaches, or travel to Carroll County, or refs in Carroll County. Get over yourselves and enjoy the GAMES and celebrate the young men who play it! They are asked to put in more time and work and make for sacrifices than most of us can imagine! Also, we should appreciate the time and sacrifices the coaches put into their programs. That doesn't mean we have to like them or agree with them, but those opinions are better shared with buddies in private or with the individuals involved directly. Let the games begin...

Lance, You called me out. I wasn't going to post anything about Duke looking at CCHS's #72, but here goes and no I don't have a link, but I have pics on Facebook: We had an "unofficial visit" (because he's junior he can't take an official visit until next year) to Duke for their game with Maryland. We are receiving several letters and postcards from them each week and they've contacted CCHS for his "official" transcript (we took a copy and some game tape during our visit) a couple of weeks ago "concerning a scholarship offer." We are also going to visit some other ACC schools in the near future, as I've been in touch with one and just found out tonight that another is interested. I am not comfortable naming them until it's official (otherwise it's just a name game). A small D-3 school in WV has also shown interest, but nothing in the way of an "offer." Duke is projecting him as an OT. He's 6'6" 265 right now (well, maybe before supper tonight) and they are recruiting him on "potential, with a projection of growing to 6'7" 295ish." I don't think most folks on the board realize that schools look at potential at the next level more than production at the high school level and that qualifying grades are a MUST. Some of the negative comments about these young men mentioned in this thread are just foolish! Be happy for these guys who have busted their ass to get where they are and will hopefully have an opportunity to be on a team at the next level. Duke takes very few walk-ons (not many can afford it and we certainly can't) and dressed "only" 85 for the UMD game. Probably no more than 35-40 played. So, there are 45 or so who are part of the team getting the free ride and the experience without ever touching the field during a game. Root for these guys and stop playing some juvenile territorial crap about what school they went to and whether you think you like their school or coach or scheme! I will be more than happy to share information with those of you who are really interested in the process, but I prefer to do it by way of PM's on this site rather than posting my drivel...

Can we move the game to the practice field? Seriously, those same conditions will slow us down as well. I don't believe MV has much more speed than we do. Taking the QB in the option game and making him pitch the ball is a must, as we all saw last week. This is a playoff game that Channel 7 will host as their "Spotlight Game of the Week" and we're talking about playing conditions (now mock AI from his practice spoof about 10 years ago and you get the dramatic effect of the sentence). Throw out the equal 6-4 records and the perceived home field advantage; this game comes down to ATTITUDE. We have to be physical (there's that attitude thing) all night long and just run our stuff and we'll be okay. Any residual hangover from Richlands or the Graham spells trouble. Ah, Grasshopper, turn loose the inner dog and have fun; that's what the game should be...

Nadoball, I am with you that size should matter, but I got flamed for suggesting that in other posts. I coached 4-5/6-7 graders in Carroll County in late 80's and early 90's. We had 21 kids out for football in 4-5 grade and 20 for 6-7 grades, so that's 41 total kids from 4-7 grade! I returned to coach my son's 6-7 teams five years ago and there were over 100 kids out for football in those two grades-not counting 4-5 graders! The program is only now starting to get its "feeder" system up and going. We lose a ton of kids with school ball (starting in the 8th grade) for the same reasons other schools do, but our JV teams have been very successful (albeit playing mostly local Group-A schools-there's that size thing again). Carroll is better known for baseball than football and there is very little positive football tradition over its 40 year history. Here's to hoping this group of young men can get a win and start building some more positives for a program that doesn't have much of a tradition in the regular season, various districts, or in the playoff...

CPF, I have no "argument" or anything to "carry on." We can agree to disagree on any issue related to enrollment or Graham football. It's all good; it's a forum to exchange opinions or facts-not the be all end all.

I never intended to hijack a thread by interjecting enrollment numbers; rather, I was attempting to offer declining numbers as a contributing factor when VSHLhelper mentioned Graham and Grenta as schools which survived with declining numbers (yes, having Vic Hall at Gretna and Bradshaw at Graham helped ease all other factors). I don't have "official" DOE numbers, but my information showed them with 523 kids, down from 572 just two years ago. That's roughly 50 kids, which may not sound like much, but statistically is significant (600-500, that's a 17% range!). Maybe its splitting hairs or a pattern/cycle repeating itself and has NOTHING to do with anything. Carroll is exactly 2-13 against Graham with both wins coming since 2004 and has roughly twice the number of students, so I was never suggesting that numbers alone correlated to Grundy's or Graham's current situations. I have great admiration and respect for what coach Carlock did for several decades at Graham-period. It would be difficult for any coach to follow him-period. I am not knowledgeable enough about their current staff to openly throw rocks at them on the Internet or in person. I just remember a lot of kids on their teams in years past and a dwindling number over the last couple of years. I personally think its nearly impossible to build a program with 15 or 20 kids on a JV team. Perhaps you summed it up best when you typed: "could not sustain what was built for whatever reason" when alluding to why Graham's program isn't at the level it was in the '60's through the '90's. That pretty much includes everything I mentioned in the portion of my response that you copied into your reply...

Gman, Ah, let's see if I know more about CCHS than Graham football (fingers crossed): That Carroll team came in at 8-0 and that game determined the marbles in the SWD. Graham had better talent and I can't readily think of any coach who was better than Glen Carlock. That was one fine high school football game and a great atmosphere despite the rain. Carroll didn't run Jeremy Overfelt enough on that criss-cross until it was too late. We just kept pounding Billy Clougher and he kept getting pounded (God, he was one tough kid!). We beat Tazewell the next week, but lost 34-14 to Lee County in the first round of the playoffs to finish 9-2. One of the best games in the history of Tommy Thompson Field had to be the Richlands game from 2005 that Carroll lost 7-6. That was a 48 minute fist fight and I am expecting the same type of game Friday night-very physical. Graham wasted us the next week 49-7. Graham also ended our undefeated season in week 10 in 2003 with a big whippin', but I can't recall the score. That team finished 10-2 and was one of the great turnarounds from an 0-10 season in 2001...

GMan, You are 100% correct and I stand corrected! I am no expert on anything, especially Graham football. I will say that I do remember scrimmaging Graham back in the 70's and they were always BIG, had very good speed, and were the best coached teams around. I always had a ton of respect for their program.

It is correct that there were two D-1 prospects on that '97 team. The end who was 6'8"ish ended up going to VT. I don't remeber why the RB didn't go anywhere, but that is the game I was referencing.

I made the numbers up! Naw, they came straight from a Google search to websites for each school. The numbers were from last year, so perhaps your DOE numbers are more fresh. My daughter graduated from CCHS last year and my son is a Junior, who plays several varsity sports-including football. I don't profess to be an expert on numbers, but I do know that Carroll's numbers are deceiving because they include 9th graders who do not attend the high school and who do not participate on the varsity teams in most all sports (there has been a golfer or two and maybe a soccer player, but I can't readily think of any 9th grader to get more than token plays at the varsity level of football). When I looked at Grundy's teams over the last several years they were full of 9th and 10th graders and the overall numbers were way down. I also didn't see anybody named Vic Hall on the roster. I think the entire enrollment thing is bogus because of how male students are counted! As I said before, I think Grundy is headed in the right direction with their team and a move down to Single-A should cure what's ailing them most. I would not want to be a Galax, Grayson, KY or WV, Single A team and play these guys next year. Then again, here comes that I am not an expert line. I offered other possible reasons for their drop off, but did state that enrollment was most likely the main contributing factor. Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't they ahead in two SWD games in the 3rd quarter? A lack of depth caught up to them? Whatever the factors, here's to hoping they right the ship going forward...

No, this will not be the first true test for CCHS. I doubt very seriously that Richlands is much more talented or faster than Christiansburg, but we shall see. C'burg hung 43 on Salem in 3OT's, so they can score. They scored with 1:16 left to tally 23 on Carroll. It was a 10-7 game with 9:42 to go before one of their backs broke 3 tackles for a first down and then hit a 68 yard run to pretty much end it on the next play. We installed a new defense this year and it took the kids and coaches a few games to get it down, so Bassett got us by one and we returned the favor by one over Patrick County the next week. This is the fastest team CCHS has probably ever had, so if we get smoked, then our opponent clearly has more speed. We shouldn't be intimated by speed, but that's certainly not all either team brings to the field. We all should recognize that Richlands has a more talented team than Carroll. However, the more talented team doesn't always win. Carroll may fold under all the pressure of the big game, but our history doesn't indicate that these kids blink very often. I remember when Graham came to town with two D-1 players and got out alive 20-12. Ditto for the game with Richlands you continue to reference in 2005. If I knew the final score or could predict 14-holes, I wouldn't be typing this message; I'd be in Vegas.

Bigrhsfan: I couldn't have said it better myself... Nadoball: Yes, CCHS can throw the ball very effectively and has more weapons than Tyler Reavis. Clearly, Carroll is a running team and mixes in the pass sparingly. We all know that teams can break tendencies from week to week given the opponent, so we shall see how many times we throw Friday. As for how we defend the pass, how do any high school players or teams defend the pass? Not very well if we're truthful. That "average" defense is giving up 12 points a game in district and 16 overall, so I wouldn't say they are average when it comes to the bottom line of points allowed. Yes, they have given up yards and most opponents have driven the ball between the 20's, but we have limited big plays and scoring for the most part. That's what effective defenses do, so I'd say we are "effective." This is "rare air" for CCHS to have an opportunity to win a district title, as we have exactly ZERO. This is senior night for a great group of young men who all grew up and played in Carroll their entire lives. The script couldn't be written any better for them on Friday night. However, we all respect the program and team that Richlands is bringing to town. Throw out the common opponents and the attempts to hijack this thread with any nonsense about the game being here (clear reference to all the officiating junk). Richlands is the champion and "to be the man you gotta beat the man." So, it should be interesting and Carroll County doesn't have to win 4 of 7 or be the better team; they just have to be better from 7:30 to around 9:30 Friday night-easier said than done, but that's why they play the games...

Make that 3 yards a puddle of mud as opposed to a cloud of dust? As I type this, there is a 30% chance of rain in Hillsville at kickoff. We've had rain every week but the Tazewell game! It rained last week for Grundy and the field conditions were not a factor (throwing out the always present psychological effect rain my have on individual players or play calling). The field drains exceptionally well and both teams will have to play in those conditions, so I doubt the weather or the field will impact the outcome more than marginally. May the best team on that night win...

Notice I had a question mark by my comment about whether or not Graham had a JV team last year, as we did not play them and were told they didn't have enough players. It's really hard to build a program with 15 or 20 guys on a JV team year in and year out. Short of "recruiting" or "signing free agents," it's going to be tough to field quality teams when numbers are that low at any school. As for Grundy's enrollment, they have approximately 528, but only 380 in grades 10-12. By comparison, CCHS does not send 9th graders to its high school and has an enrollment in the 900's and averages around 1000. The great Vince Lombardi may have easily been undefeated at Salem and win-less at the former Pocahontas HS...

It's funny how all the ingredients involved with determining the outcomes of each game always come down to one single element: EXECUTION. The team that runs their "stuff" better and doesn't turn the ball over generally wins. CCHS is well coached and generally runs its system well. If we hang on to the ball and eat clock, we are hard to beat. Then again, one could say the same for most teams following that recipe. Richlands runs a high risk-high reward system which is entertaining and generally gives them a chance to win any game-any where. I would hate to make a living predicting the outcomes of high school football games, so I'll just watch and enjoy two good teams go at it! Both teams look good for playoff spots, with the winner securing a bigger prize and the loser trying not to let this game beat them twice...

VHSLhelper: Hey, I wasn't suggesting that enrollment was the only reason for a decline with Grundy, but it is certainly a main factor. How ironic that you mentioned Graham as their program is also struggling. I would suggest that declining enrollment has to be hurting them too? They had 15 kids on a JV team a couple of years when we played them at Graham and didn't have a JV team last year? Yes, there are other factors (poor coaching, poor relationships with kids and parents, poor facilities, younger kids playing soccer or just one sport, poor recreation or "feeder" programs and the list goes on), but a decline in enrollment hurts ANY program, even those with excellent coaching.

Having been on both ends of winning and not winning (never 23 straight overall, or in district, or in Tiddlywinks!) as a player and coach, this is a tough issue to resolve. I think the really good coaches (although I don't think really good coaches drop 23 straight district games) don't mention streaks of any kind and really do try to focus on the next opponent-period. There is no mention of the last game (a win or loss) past the first portion of Monday's practice. I think Grundy is caught in a numbers game and simply has struggled to play a "Double A schedule" as a true Single-A team. In other words, I think most SWD Teams would struggle to win constantly against very good AAA teams 3 to 4 hours away (there's that travel booger again). I thought they were well coached and played hard against Carroll. They simply lacked depth and speed to hang in there for four quarters. Hey, if games were 3 quarters they'd have several more wins? I only saw 23 kids on the roster? Davie only had to sly Goliath once with one throw; it wasn't a 48 minute fight. I also think Grundy's play-calling is a little off in that there is no identity as to what they want to be (a running or throwing team). Some possessions are all runs, some are all throws, and none have much flow or design to them. The bootleg throws to the left were working against Carroll and they stopped calling those plays! Do that until they stop you and then come back with a reverse. It seems the QB is young, but talented. #11 can catch it and played great on both sides of the ball. The RB is undersized, but fast and played hard. I wouldn't want to be a Single- A team and play these guys next year! Hang in there and moving down will cure a lot of what's ailing this program. In terms of how to change things up in practice, I agree that whatever is being done is not working. I know this sounds stupid, but do the opposite. If you're riding them, back off. If you're not riding them, ride them. Play flag football, set-back, or skills competitions if you've been hard on them to change up the routine for a day. If not, bull in the ring, Oklahoma and just plain o' tackling drill them until dark to add a little spice. No matter how it plays out, best of luck to all SWD teams with making the playoffs and advancing...

Bulldogs52, That's what I thought I had heard, but 6 is an odd number. I guess the top-2 get a bye, while 3 plays 6; 4 plays 5? Anyway, thanks for answering...

Refresh my aging memory, how many from each division make the playoffs?

Holy smokes GMan. Give a newbie poster a break. We junior members with 2 or 3 posts are bound to make mistakes that folks with 8,663 posts wouldn't make!

Upon further review, my apologies to Willie Yates. He was the featured back during that season and played very hard and very well throughout the entire season. Also interesting that we had a terrific kicker in Lance Ayers, who I don't remember missing many extra points during his career. I was there and was hoping against hope that we went for two. I don't believe we would have won in OT anyway, but there's always a chance at that point of a game. Play for the tie at home and the win on the road be danged!

GMan, I just got back from Carroll's lackluster win over Grayson County (25-6), so you beat me to the punch. Thanks for providing facts over perception or myth. I was going to state that there was never a time that Carroll beat Graham when Graham wasn't down-didn't happen. 2-13 with both wins in Carroll and those two wins would have happened on the moon! Lance, I am not trying to settle anything on this forum. Can we simply agree to disagree on this one? The 2005 Richlands game was a GREAT high school football game and another example of one team letting down a little while the other played above their head. Give the coaching staffs and young men some credit for almost pulling off a MAJOR upset instead of advancing theories that Carroll couldn't have stayed in that game without help from the officials. The score was 7-6 for Christ's sake, so it's not like anybody gave Carroll anything and we still lost! We had a great running back (Sam Beasley, who went on to VT) and the ground game played a key role in playing keep away to stay in the game and limit an explosive teams opportunities. I can't remember too many years that we were 5-5 with all the wins coming at home? In the last 15 years, we have finished 5-5 3 times and I count several home losses in all three years-including two last year. So again, I can't find any stat or specific incident to support your position on the topic? BTW, I have PTSD and some cute stories of playing the Bluefield Beavers in Mitchell Stadium 30 years ago. I can't believe the old serpent of a venue is still alive and looking good or better than it did anyway. We only scrimmaged Graham one time (1981) and they were very good and very well coached!

Lance, I am with you on your points about officiating in general, but I will offer some facts and an additional theory: Without specific examples, I can make an intelligent reply to your claim that strange calls happened in Carroll County years ago or last week. I can sorta address the theory that wins are not proportional at home versus the road. Home teams win approximately 60% of their games, including in the NFL! Would VT have beaten NE if that game were played in Lincoln? Home-cooking? Doubtful on both accounts, but I digress. Let's look at the facts about CCHS: All-time record 166-239-4 or 41%, so this school has had it's share of losing everywhere and remember that good teams win, period, no matter where they play. Further, our record against the best programs in the SWD (over the time that Carroll has been in the league I think most of us can agree that Graham, Richlands and Grundy have had wonderful long-term programs from the list of original members) is 4-10 with Richlands, 2-13 with Graham, and 9-9 with Grundy. BTW, it's 9-6 with Abingdon; 7-6 with Tazewell; 10-5 with Marion. However, some of the games with Abingdon and Marion were played before they joined the district. So, the aggregate total in district play is a whopping 41-49 or 41%. Now, my degree is from Marshall and it isn't in math, but proportional winning % seems to be in line at roughly 41%. Now if there's some sort of home cooking it's not in those stats, but I'll offer that I don't have the home-away results-just the gross results (pun intended). If Carroll won the average of 60% at home, that would equal 20% on the road! I don't think the home field advantage is imaginary either. It's alive at every level of sports and in every sport. Teams probably really do play better at home; Officials probably get caught up in the crowd noise and emotion and react with flags that they wouldn't otherwise toss. I agree 100% on the overzealous flag throwers of today, but I think a lot of it is the lack of communication. For example: I would have officials tell me to "watch it or that's getting called next time." "Hey #51, keep your hands inside." That's getting late or chippy, watch it." That kind of banter doesn't happen much anymore and it's a shame. Coaches would also ask who a penalty was on and what the player did that drew a flag. Now I see and hear them talk to officials in a manner which indicates that their degrees weren't in public relations! So, some of it is emotion, some of it is the play itself, and some of it is a lack of communication between players/coaches and officials. As to the theory that refs saw CCHS more than other teams and were familar with them and not other teams or formations, maybe? I'll offer one other opinion: Richlands, Graham, and Grundy brought better teams to CCHS through the years than most any other opponents on the schedule-home or away. This district plays a very physical smash-mouth type of ball that I LOVE. It's tough to officiate a game with very talented players because they make the difficult seem easy and the impossible seem like a penalty. There is a natural tendency to think that a player had to have gained some advantage by overachieving when in reality he was really just that good! So, the better players probably did get some "phantom" calls on the road that they wouldn't get at home due to their level of play. In other words, this young man has not been beaten around the outside all year and suddenly he's burned. Was he held? Maybe? More than likely both he and the ref hadn't had a player of that caliber to contain and simply didn't make the play. Now, if the crowd reacts, then their is a tendency to think that a call must have been missed? Bottom line: I don't think a flag should be thrown unless the infraction occurred in the play (not 20 yards off the ball) or an injury could result from the penalty- i.e. chop block. Did the player gain an unfair advantage from his actions should be the litmus test question. So, I don't think formations caused as many flags as better players and pure raw emotion caused? BTW, I recommend that everybody try to watch a game at field level. The play is amplified like you wouldn't believe. After all, that's the level from which the game is officiated at the high school level. Colleges and Pro's have replay booths from above for a reason! I hope your favorite team wins, but most of all I hope young men all over SW Virginia go out and compete to their fullest ability while avoiding the injury bug...