A Few Thoughts From the Showdown:

[GMan 3,569]

Here's a reminder for you Fishy...

 

Even if Richlands wins back-to-back State Championships, they have to live the rest of their lives knowing Graham put an end to their regular season winning streak and the mighty Blow'Naders did not beat the two Bluefields the year of their second title.

 

That's GOT to hurt...

 

As for you crybaby UVA fans...you guys are unbelievable!!! You have excuses for everything.

 

You scream "THUG" when a VT player makes a clean tackle, yet you say it was the VT QB's fault he got hit late.

 

Your recruiting class for the last several years under Groh has been rated higher than VT's by all the recruiting services yet play the "academics" card when VT hands you your ass on the field.

 

And in turn, you say Groh does pretty well with what he has to work with...which acccording to the recruiting services is a pretty good group of kids...yet, UVA continues to underachieve under the direction of The Chessmaster. Do you realize the greatest D-lineman to ever wear a UVA uniform went 0-4 vs. VT during his career?

 

Enjoy the Music City Bowl...

 

www.dontfirealgroh.com

[RichlandsAlum 678]

[ QUOTE ]

 

Even if Richlands wins back-to-back State Championships, they have to live the rest of their lives knowing Graham put an end to their regular season winning streak and the mighty Blow'Naders did not beat the two Bluefields the year of their second title.

 

That's GOT to hurt...

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

This just in from the "rest of their lives" department....

 

Personally, I console myself with the fact that my class (the immortal '89) went 5-3 against both Bluefield institutions during our high school years. And I have particular affection for Graham -- our victory over the G-Men kept us from going winless our senior year.

 

Thanks a million for the perspective, G-Man.

[BigBlueAlum 12]

[ QUOTE ]

Can anyone name another school that has made both the Final Four and a BCS bowl over the past five years.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

Louisville, Texas, Ohio State, LSU, and Georgia Tech...thats all I could find.

[OFISHE8 10]

I had a blast at the Music City Bowl! Beer at the stadium and smoozing in the lounge with Howie Long's wife!! (She has a great plastic surgeon!!) Doesn't get much better than that!!

 

I will be the first to admit though....unlike most other fans when someone deserves credit. Graham played one heck of a game earlier this year and whipped the Blues at home. Hats off to the GMEN for that! Since that game, the Blues have kept their nose to the grind and worked their tails off to get better. And watching them for the past few weeks has been a wonderful ride and I hope it continues. As for the Graham and Richlands rivalry...I hope it continues for a long time and they both push each other to become better. This only helps both programs and helps Region IV maintain the reputaion that both Graham and Richlands have given them over the past decade in football. We should be thanking each other!

 

The Hokies will continue their dominance in football over Virginia, as much as it pains me to say that, for the time being! I hate to admit that as a Virginia fan, but the truth is the truth. As for Groh, what do you say? I am sure the Hokie nation wants him to stay. He has his moments but for the most part he is average to below average. So do you think a coaching change is the answer? Maybe for the short term, but this is a long term problem. Welsh could never get it done either at Virginia. The school has to make the committment and I don't see that happeninig right now.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

[ QUOTE ]

Here's a reminder for you Fishy...

 

Even if Richlands wins back-to-back State Championships, they have to live the rest of their lives knowing Graham put an end to their regular season winning streak and the mighty Blow'Naders did not beat the two Bluefields the year of their second title.

 

That's GOT to hurt...

 

As for you crybaby UVA fans...you guys are unbelievable!!! You have excuses for everything.

 

You scream "THUG" when a VT player makes a clean tackle, yet you say it was the VT QB's fault he got hit late.

 

Your recruiting class for the last several years under Groh has been rated higher than VT's by all the recruiting services yet play the "academics" card when VT hands you your ass on the field.

 

And in turn, you say Groh does pretty well with what he has to work with...which acccording to the recruiting services is a pretty good group of kids...yet, UVA continues to underachieve under the direction of The Chessmaster. Do you realize the greatest D-lineman to ever wear a UVA uniform went 0-4 vs. VT during his career?

 

Enjoy the Music City Bowl...

 

www.dontfirealgroh.com

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

Do you just enjoy flaming without any basis for your accusations? Recall one post for me where I called Chris Ellis a "thug". You can't, obviously, because it doesn't exist. Likewise, name one point where I said Sean Glennon "deserved" the hit. Alas, it doesn't exist! You know better than to make two baseless accusations like that, my friend. There's no reason to flame.

 

With regards to the Ellis hit on Sewell, the hit itself was a horse-collar tackle. That is illegal in professional football, but perfectly legal in college. That's fine, I understand that. However, what I have referred to without rest is the extracurriculars after the play. Upon conclusion of the play, Ellis CLEARLY AND WANTONLY jerked Sewell's facemask upward after the play. He then proceeds to make a display while Sewell is lying on the ground, partially due to the facemask-jerk. In any football league, this is a 15-yard personal foul penalty.

 

To my knowledge, only one of Groh's recruiting classes was ranked higher than Beamer's: the vaunted (and disappointing) 2002 class. That class was ranked 11th nationally. No other Virginia recruiting class has surpassed the ranking of a Virginia Tech class. If you have facts to support yourself, please present them. You generally do when you really, truly want to prove a point. I think you'll be surprised if you look at the recruiting ranks.

As I have stated, with LITTLE retort from you, academics have been an issue in Virginia recruiting. Refute some of my facts. Provide me evidence as to where I'm wrong. You've failed to do so thus far.

 

Also, I can even quibble with your analysis that Chris Long is the best to wear a Virginia uniform. Chris Long is indeed one of the best to wear a Virginia uniform, I'll give you that. He likely wil be the highest defensive pick ever drafted from Virginia. However, it is not a mortal lock that Long is the best. The current sack leader in Virginia history is Chris Slade, with 15 in a season. Chris Long has 13.5.

 

You are also incorrect in your inflammatory bowl projection. I'm sure you are aware that the ACC allows teams within one loss of another to jump them. To get the Music City Bowl, both Clemson and Wake Forest would have to jump Virginia in the bowl selection process. Wake Forest has a worse overall record, worse conference record, and has lost to Virginia. This will not happen. I am convinced that Clemson will jump Virginia for the Gator Bowl, since Clemson travels quite well, and since the Gator Bowl has passed over Virginia in the past under similar circumstances.

 

I certainly not a "crybaby", or any other similar third-grade insult you will likely come up with. Far from it. I give credit where credit is due; recently in other posts, I've taken up for Virginia Tech. However, I'm will not stand for someone bashing my alma mater and its supporters without anything resembling a reasonable purpose. I'm too hot-blooded for that.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

[ QUOTE ]

As I have stated, with LITTLE retort from you, academics have been an issue in Virginia recruiting. Refute some of my facts. Provide me evidence as to where I'm wrong. You've failed to do so thus far.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

Come on Observer, don't put G-Man on the spot like that. Particularly since there's a recent and obvious example refuting your argument who was a product of the Graham program.

 

The "academics" argument is either Grade A fertilizer (to put it delicately) or there is a very liberal policy allowing exceptions. Herman Moore ring a bell?

 

If anything, UVA's academic reputation is a major advantage in recruiting.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Ahmad Bradshaw met the requirements; he wouldn't have been admitted to Virginia otherwise.

As did Herman Moore. What happens when each recruit gets here is quite another story.

[GMan 3,569]

[ QUOTE ]

Ahmad Bradshaw met the requirements; he wouldn't have been admitted to Virginia otherwise.

As did Herman Moore. What happens when each recruit gets here is quite another story.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

I don't think he had been accepted to UVA yet when the incident took place...that is why he was able to play immediately at Marshall...

[Deleted Account 5,203]

That is indeed true. My error.

However, wouldn't it be a small logical leap to say that if he was practicing there, and had the intention to go there, and all that was lacking was that he was not formally admitted, that he had the prerequisites to get into Virginia?

[RichlandsAlum 678]

[ QUOTE ]

Ahmad Bradshaw met the requirements; he wouldn't have been admitted to Virginia otherwise.

As did Herman Moore. What happens when each recruit gets here is quite another story.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

Herman Moore was a partial qualifier. UVA was actually his second choice, but he wound up there after being advised (incorrectly, as it turned out) that Virginia Tech would not accept him as a partial qualifier.

 

G-Man addressed the other example I offered. And those are just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Every program bends the rules to get the athlete(s) they want -- the Ivy League schools even do it to some extent.

I'm not trying to pour salt in wounds, and I know I'm goring something of a sacred cow here. But the notion that UVA's academic standards negatively impact its football team's ability to recruit blue chippers is simply a well cultivated myth.

 

There are steps that The University could take to right the ship. For example, if I were a UVA fan I'd be a lot more concerned about Craig Littlepage's apparent generosity in negotiating contracts.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

[ QUOTE ]

That is indeed true. My error.

However, wouldn't it be a small logical leap to say that if he was practicing there, and had the intention to go there, and all that was lacking was that he was not formally admitted, that he had the prerequisites to get into Virginia?

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

If he had been planning to attend UVA as a National Merit Scholar, that would be a reasonable conclusion. The fact that his admission status had not been resolved when it became an important issue indicates that he was given consideration that the majority of UVA applicants do not receive. This fact also serves as further evidence to refute your point.

 

Rebuttal, counselor-in-training?

[Deleted Account 5,203]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

That is indeed true. My error.

However, wouldn't it be a small logical leap to say that if he was practicing there, and had the intention to go there, and all that was lacking was that he was not formally admitted, that he had the prerequisites to get into Virginia?

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

If he had been planning to attend UVA as a National Merit Scholar, that would be a reasonable conclusion. The fact that his admission status had not been resolved when it became an important issue indicates that he was given consideration that the majority of UVA applicants do not receive. This fact also serves as further evidence to refute your point.

 

Rebuttal, counselor-in-training?

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

You equate giving preferrential consideration with compromising the academic standards of the University of Virginia, and those two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. I am not in favor of preferrential treatment of athletes, don't get me wrong. However, he wasn't doing educational work over the summer in a frantic attempt to bend the academic standards get in. His academics were set by the time he left high school, and for Virginia to consider him, he must have had the academic criteria to make it in.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

[ QUOTE ]

 

You equate giving preferrential consideration with compromising the academic standards of the University of Virginia, and those two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. I am not in favor of preferrential treatment of athletes, don't get me wrong. However, he wasn't doing educational work over the summer in a frantic attempt to bend the academic standards get in. His academics were set by the time he left high school, and for Virginia to consider him, he must have had the academic criteria to make it in.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

We're not talking about the general academic standards of the University of Virginia, which are certainly beyond reproach. We're talking about the separate standards that exist for athletes (at UVA and everywhere else, for that matter). It's really an apples and oranges comparison (and possibly nectarines too, for that matter).

 

Ahmad Bradhaw definitely did not meet the academic standards established for non-athlete students of the University of Virginia. If he had, then his admission would never have been in question. Whether or not he met the separate requirements for athletes is questionable. I believe he probably did. But this is proof of the fact that there are two standards at work, and the University's general standards simply aren't applicable.

 

If a UVA coach wants a recruit badly enough, it doesn't matter how academically qualified that person is (assuming he meets some really minimal requirements) -- they will be admitted to the University. Ergo, the University's stringent admissions requirements really aren't a hindrance to recruiting.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

[ QUOTE ]

3. This is the big one. If I'm not mistaken, Virginia requires each of its athletes to maintain a 2.5 GPA and have at least a 1000 on the SATs (1500 on the newer version) coming out of high school. There are many, many four-star and five-star players that simply do not meet this requirement. Virginia has to exclude them automatically, and often, Virginia Tech or a school of similar repute accepts them.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

A wonderful policy rooted in sound morals and academic thinking. However, it's not etched in stone. The truth is that in any given year, there are approximately 20 exceptions to this policy that the football staff is allowed to use at its discretion.

 

There are many players on the UVA football and hoops rosters that do not meet this requirement, and there always will be.

 

It's very similar to income tax code. I'm in the 28% bracket, yet my effective tax rate is 9%.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

 

You equate giving preferrential consideration with compromising the academic standards of the University of Virginia, and those two do not necessarily go hand-in-hand. I am not in favor of preferrential treatment of athletes, don't get me wrong. However, he wasn't doing educational work over the summer in a frantic attempt to bend the academic standards get in. His academics were set by the time he left high school, and for Virginia to consider him, he must have had the academic criteria to make it in.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

We're not talking about the general academic standards of the University of Virginia, which are certainly beyond reproach. We're talking about the separate standards that exist for athletes (at UVA and everywhere else, for that matter). It's really an apples and oranges comparison (and possibly nectarines too, for that matter).

 

Ahmad Bradhaw definitely did not meet the academic standards established for non-athlete students of the University of Virginia. If he had, then his admission would never have been in question. Whether or not he met the separate requirements for athletes is questionable. I believe he probably did. But this is proof of the fact that there are two standards at work, and the University's general standards simply aren't applicable.

 

If a UVA coach wants a recruit badly enough, it doesn't matter how academically qualified that person is (assuming he meets some really minimal requirements) -- they will be admitted to the University. Ergo, the University's stringent admissions requirements really aren't a hindrance to recruiting.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

A comparison between academic standards and athletic standards is not like comparing apples to oranges, especially when academics make an athlete eligible to play his/her sport. I will stray from touting the numbers of Virginia for their own sake; I state statistics solely to make a point about the athletic recruits. From this point on in this post, I will simply display how I believe it affects the ability for Virginia to get its athletes.

In order to make my argument, I will post this one set of statistics, which I will tie into athletics in a short while: http://collegesearch.collegeboard.com/search/CollegeDetail.jsp?collegeId=2350&profileId=0

Look under the fourth column: "Student Body". This is not "Student Body Minus Athletes"; it is a representation of all the members of the University community. Look specifically at the fourth and fifth set of groupings in there. In the fourth set, the statistics state that 100% of Virginia students were in the top half of their high school class. Not 99%. Not >99%. 100%. Athletes included. In the fifth set, look at the grade distributions. 100% of students have a 2.5 GPA or higher. As you see, there is no category denoting below a 2.5, because there are no students at Virginia under a 2.5, including athletes.

 

This does not have a bearing on most sports at Virginia, notably soccer, tennis, and lacrosse: the prep sports, to put it lightly. It does have a larger bearing on basketball and football. The most recent basketball exclusion from Virginia for falling below in-house academic standards was Jason Clark, a solid defensive player under the Gillen era (when defense was at a premium). With regards to football, I'm sure we can agree that there are a fair number of four-star or five-star recruits that pay more attention to their athletics, sacrificing education at times to compete for top colleges. Since the Virginia standard is a 2.5 and 1000 on the SATs (1500: revamped), these students are not likely to get in if they were recruited by Virginia. This forces the coaching staff to target players with great upside potential and a strong work ethic. Blue-collar, almost...

 

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree, which is perfectly fine. It happens on the Supreme Court with regards to nearly every issue. However, since we are just rehashing the same points over and over again, this topic has pretty much come to a stalemate. I do respect your opinion, but I do not fully see evidence in order to sway me from my belief. I'm sure this applies to you, also. I say we move on from this topic.

[GMan 3,569]

Interesting article on ESPN regarding football teams and academics...interesting is the fact that VT's and UVA's teams are only .3 apart.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=easterbrook/071127

 

If academics mattered, who would play for the national championship?

 

In a few days, hooded figures manipulating mysterious computer formulas will announce the final BCS standings and the lineup for college football's prestigious bowl games. Records, opponents, conference affiliations, polls and, it always seems, the phases of the moons of Saturn will be taken into account. But what if academics were factored in, too? What if there were an A/BCS -- an Academics-Included Bowl Championship Series?

 

I put that question to Lindsey Luebchow, a policy analyst of the New America Foundation and author of Higher Ed Watch, one of the country's best blogs. Luebchow relentlessly dissects hypocrisy, double-talk and yammer in higher education, especially the big colleges' relationships to Congress. She is also a sports nut, and annually computes what the men's basketball Sweet 16 would look like based on educational achievement. So I asked her to do the same for the current 25 BCS teams.

 

Appropriately, Luebchow came up with a ratings procedure that's hard to understand -- just like the real BCS! Her reasoning: "The A/BCS formula starts with the football team's four-class average federal graduation rate, which includes all football players who entered college between 1997 and 2000 and graduated within six years. Football programs then earn or lose points based on three criteria. First, the gap between the graduation rate of the team and the overall school. Second, the gap between the black-white graduation rate disparity on the team and at the overall school. Third, the team's Academic Progress Rate, a measure developed by the NCAA that evaluates how many student-athletes are advancing toward a degree."

 

Without further ado, here are the big-bowl pairings if academics mattered, with the A/BCS ranking following the school name:

 

Allstate BCS Championship Game:

Boston College (127.80) vs. Cincinnati (97.25)

 

Rose Bowl Presented by Citi:

Auburn (73.15) vs. Boise State (68.90)

 

FedEx Orange Bowl:

Virginia (60.45) vs. Virginia Tech (60.15)

 

Tostitos Fiesta Bowl:

Clemson (59.35) vs. USC (51.65)

 

Allstate Sugar Bowl:

West Virginia (47.85) vs. Arizona State (46.35)

 

Exiled to the bottom of the A/BCS and the pre-New-Year's bowls named after lawn equipment and mufflers:

 

21. LSU (29.95)

22. Ohio State (28.55)

23. Oregon (8.35)

24. Texas (7.85)

25. Hawaii (-2.35)

 

Note the University of Cincinnati, often derided for low graduation rates in men's basketball, does very well academically with regards to Division I-A football. Note Auburn, subject of a recent scandal regarding some football players passing classes they seem never to have attended, gets the third seed in the A/BCS rankings, quite a respectable academic performance. Note Clemson, long a sports powerhouse, does well in the A/BCS, a reflection of Clemson's advance to serious-school status, and West Virginia does a lot better than most would have guessed. Note Virginia Tech has essentially the same academic-athletic performance as the selective, much-higher-prestige University of Virginia. Then note Ohio State and LSU, which have bounced around No. 1 and No. 2 much of the year, do poorly on athletic academics -- that $57 million in revenue the football program generated for Ohio State in 2006 doesn't seem to have been invested in textbooks or tutors. And perhaps Hawaii's negative ranking on the A/BCS scale means the average football player leaves the school knowing less than when he arrived.

 

A complete explanation of Luebchow's formula can be found here,(http://www.newamerica.net/files/Higher%20Ed%20Watch%20Academic%20BCS%20Formula.doc) along with her ranking for each of the 25 BCS contenders. Her thoughts on the A/BCS, posting simultaneously with TMQ, are here.

 

The First Annual A/BCS Poll also creates an opportunity to restate an idea proposed by a TMQ reader several years ago: the NFL should only alllow its players to list the highest school from which they actually graduated in media guides and television introductions. Scan the "2007 NFL Record and Fact Book," the league's official guide, and you'll find all but a couple of players have "college" listed after their names. During the player introductions that begin most telecasts, the majority of players speak the name of a college. But in too many cases, they only attended the colleges in question, never completing a degree.

 

For instance, a significant number of NFL players are, according to team rosters and sportscaster depictions, "from" Ohio State University. Luebchow uses NCAA data to calculate that only roughly 50 percent of recent Ohio State football players to reach the NFL actually walked in a robe to "Pomp and Circumstance." True, the non-graduates on NFL rosters are just saying they attended Ohio State or other colleges, not claiming to possess degrees. Yet having hundreds of NFL players listed as "from" a college where they rarely were in class and did not complete a diploma is deceptive, implying pro football bears a closer link to higher education than it really does. If, in contrast, NFL media guides and official publications listed the highest institution from which a player received a degree, significant numbers of players would be listing high schools. That might embarrass NFL players into finishing their degrees, also perhaps inspiring present NCAA athletes to graduate on time and qualify to list their colleges. It is, after all, the degree the player should be proud of -- not having taken up a dorm bed and worn a funny plastic hat.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

That's good food for thought! I glanced at the article today on ESPN's "Page Two", and really sat down to read it now. I dug a little bit, and it didn't take me long to find where Lindsey Lubechow found here information on Virginia: http://www.web.virginia.edu/iaas/data_catalog/institutional/data_digest/acad_grad_athletes.htm

A fairly interesting website to thumb through.

 

Really, here's the meat and bones of the article:

[ QUOTE ]

Appropriately, Luebchow came up with a ratings procedure that's hard to understand -- just like the real BCS! Her reasoning: "The A/BCS formula starts with the football team's four-class average federal graduation rate, which includes all football players who entered college between 1997 and 2000 and graduated within six years. Football programs then earn or lose points based on three criteria. First, the gap between the graduation rate of the team and the overall school. Second, the gap between the black-white graduation rate disparity on the team and at the overall school. Third, the team's Academic Progress Rate, a measure developed by the NCAA that evaluates how many student-athletes are advancing toward a degree."

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

She lists three criteria:

1. Gap between the graduation rate of the team and the overall school. Virginia football: 64.6%; Virginia whole: 92.2%. That's a fairly damning statistic, I say.

 

2. Black-white graduation disparity of the team and overall school. Virginia football: 15.1%; Virginia whole: 4.0%. That not very solid, either.

 

3. I had to go to another webpage to determine Virginia's individual Academic progress rate. The site is http://chronicle.com/stats/apr/index.php...30&start=45

Virginia is tied for 55th in the nation in this regard, with an overall score of 978. The football team has a score of 972. Anything above a 925 is respectable, per the NCAA standards. With some Virginia players moving to the National Footbal League, this number isn't really a shocker.

 

However, before there is any gloating, this concerns primarily college graduation rates. It is but one factor is an athlete's academic performance, not the deciding end-all for athletic academic performance. Likewise, there are exceptions with any given class: note for the incoming class of 2000, the graduation rate disparity was down from 15.1% to 10.3%, and that more African-American athletes graduated that white athletes; it shows an upward trend with more current current classes. Still, I would much like for those statistics to be much better for Virginia's behalf. Much, much better.