Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 Liberty upsets UVA tonight, 86-82. What a whale of a gameplan from Dave Leitao: "We have 3 players over 6'10''. Nah, let's make our 4 play out of position at the 5 and run a small lineup the entire evening. That way, we can totally take offensive production entirely out of the post. Not only that, I want to try to shoot more 3-pointers than 2-pointers tonight. I better tell my senior and junior swingmen to not score any points, too. Victory assured!" I feel like Boeheim: "We're not winning 10 f------ games this year". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I would say something in jest but VT still has Longwood and Richmond on the schedule and could possibly lose EITHER of those games... VT and UVA can no longer take any in-state game for granted... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted November 26, 2008 I would say something in jest but VT still has Longwood and Richmond on the schedule and could possibly lose EITHER of those games... VT and UVA can no longer take any in-state game for granted... It's a shame. The two best basketball schools in this state are GMU and VCU. That's downright sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendatLegion 109 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 This isn't even close to the Chaminade game. But i see where you are coming from, losing to an in-state team, and it isn't one of the ones i would consider the top3. The Chaminade game may have been the biggest upset in college basketball history. Tony Randolph and the rest of the Silver sword boys upsetting #1 UVA with 3 time NCAA player of the year Ralph Sampson. check this out... http://www.mmbolding.com/basketball/Chaminade.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendatLegion 109 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 Hey and don't forget the kids at VMI, you better be able to fun and gun with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 This isn't even close to the Chaminade game. But i see where you are coming from, losing to an in-state team, and it isn't one of the ones i would consider the top3. The Chaminade game may have been the biggest upset in college basketball history. Tony Randolph and the rest of the Silver sword boys upsetting #1 UVA with 3 time NCAA player of the year Ralph Sampson.check this out... http://www.mmbolding.com/basketball/Chaminade.htm No offense taken. :) But it's still quite a doozy, and an important one. The last time UVA lost to Liberty, in 1998, Jeff Jones didn't last to coach another season. This is UVA's biggest upset since that loss 10 years ago, I'd go so far to say. Thank goodness we held on to beat Puerto Rico-Mayaguez by 7 in the 2006-2007 season, else that would've been the 2nd-worst upset in UVA history. UVA has no business playing Liberty close at all. We have too much raw talent to play their style of gameplan. There may never be another "Chaminade" for UVA. One, I can't see UVA getting back to #1 in a revenue sport until I'm old and gray. Second, to lose to a small college team not even in the NCAA is just epic, really. The comparison is inaccurate, of course, and I knew it was far from perfect when I posted. But it is a big upset, and it REALLY calls into question Leitao's coaching philosophy. And we did take care of VMI in our opener...by 10. We had to hold on to beat Radford, for goodness sakes. We're playing like a team that wouldn't even win the Big South. And that's deeply disturbing. Especially with a roster chocked full of 3* and 4* players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman 10 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 UVAObserver, I always enjoy reading your posts, you seem to have great insight on the atlhletic scene at Uva. How has Littlepage let this happen with UVA football & basketball. Seems hard to believe they have fallen so much in both sports. I am a Tech fan 1st and foremost, but i do pull for the Cavs also. Surely they could be much more competitive. Does it fall in Littlepages lap or elsewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 (edited) UVAObserver, I always enjoy reading your posts, you seem to have great insight on the atlhletic scene at Uva. How has Littlepage let this happen with UVA football & basketball. Seems hard to believe they have fallen so much in both sports. I am a Tech fan 1st and foremost, but i do pull for the Cavs also. Surely they could be much more competitive. Does it fall in Littlepages lap or elsewhere? I appreciate the kind words, Norse! And I'm very honored for your support, even as a Tech fan. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- There are a multitude of reasons I believe that UVA has fallen on hard times in the big two revenue sports recently. Here they are, and I'll just name the big ones, in what I feel is the proper order of importance. #1: Administrative Apathy to Sports UVA's main claim to fame will always be its academic prestige. Frankly, I wouldn't have it any other way; I'm proud of my alma mater for its tireless devotion to academics, and in that respect, Casteen/Littlepage/Sandridge/BOV/etc. have done a successful job. However, this doesn't mean that the administration should turn all but a blind eye to athletics. Oh no, far from it. Frankly, I think the administration couldn't give a hill of beans as long as the coaches aren't running the team into the ground and producing model, upstanding, graduating citizens. Here's an example from football. Groh's on pace to go 5-7, 9-4, and 5-7 in his last three seasons. That's a sterling 19-18 record. For his career, Groh will be 56-44 (34-30 ACC) after this season mercifully ends Saturday. However, here's what Craig Littlepage said when giving Groh his vote of confidence: Groh "and his staff have done a good job and our team has responded well...We have great wins against ranked teams and we're in the mix for divisional and conference championships." WHAT?! We had 2 comeback wins against lower top-25 opponents, and the only reason UVA was in the conference chase until last week was because the ACC was incredibly average. Here's my translation of Littlepage's soundbyte: "It's alright, we're not absolutely in the toilet, we're still raking in money hand-over-fist. We've managed to keep ourselves somewhat relevent in a bad BCS conference. Chris Long, I mean, Al Groh won the 2007 ACC COTY title. He's our guy!". Far from a commitment to excellence in athletics. Which leads me to... #2: Donor Apathy to Sports At other institutions, donors give a considerable amount of money to successful athletic programs, for athletic programs are often the face of the school to the public at large. I believe you see a microcosm of this at Virginia Tech, where the success of the football program has spilled over to where the Athletic Department receives fairly sizable donations relative to the growth of the academic endowment. UVA is a horse of a different color in that regard. The donors give, give, and give, regardless of the success of the sports teams. For example, in 2007, Frank Batten, Sr. gave $100 million to start the "School of Leadership and Public Policy". Carl and Hunter Smith gave $25 million to start the marching band and fund a new performing arts center slated for construction in 2009, and this after many more renovations around grounds. John Paul Jones, Jr. gave $150 million to help fund the construction of his father's namesake arena. UVA's endowment now stands at $4 billion dollars. That's right. However, these same donors will NOT use their "power of the pursestrings" to get rid of unachieving coaches (like some of our peers, ND and Michigan, have done). The Virginia Athletics Foundation raised season ticket prices this last year anywhere from 40-800% to maintain season tickets. Of course, some donors were forced to give up their tickets, in protest or because they couldn't afford it. But enough ponied up the money in the name of "helping the university" to help the VAF turn a profit. In short, the donors (and even major athletic donors) will continue to blindly give more and more money, regardless of the success of the on-field product. #3: Director's Cup Standings The Director's Cup is "a program that honors institutions maintaining a broad-based program, achieving success in many sports, both men's and women's", given by the National Association of Collegiate Directors of Athletics. UVA, gifted with a healthy endowment by the aforementioned donors, is able to appease Title IX and field 27 Division I sports. This is a great thing, and a noble goal to strive for, but it's not something to totally dictate your athletic policies. However, many of these sports have certain niches, and many schools do not field Division I sports in such things as crew, lacrosse, field hockey, tennis, and golf. In short, the Director's Cup is a worthy goal, but it's certainly not the most accurate indicator of the overall health of a sports program, esecially given that "honors institutions maintaining a broad-based program". In 2006-2007, Virginia placed 13th in the Director's Cup. Littlepage et. al. were pleased and hailed this as a great achievement for the university. How did UVA do in football? Of course, 0 points. In 2007-2008, Virginia placed 17th. How did UVA do in men's basketball? Of course, 0 points. Wait a minute, no worries, though: the NACDA only takes a program's top 20 sports to factor into the equation; it's right there on the website: "Sports Included: Division I -- 20, 10 men's and 10 women's". UVA has 27 sports. Essentially, football and men's basketball are meaningless to the Director's Cup, as long as other sports carry the weight. Virginia Tech finished 37th in the 2007-2008 rankings, their highest ever, if I'm not mistaken. Of course, football and men's basketball aided their climb. So, while Casteen and Littlepage raise a glass of Pinot Noir to the Director's Cup, they recognize that football and men's basketball, the two sports the public builds its perception upon, can be mediocre, and UVA can still maintain its Director's Cup standing. It's criminal, really. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Due to time constraints, those are the top three reasons. I didn't have to bring Groh's nepotism (obvious), UVAs lust to hire former alums to positions even when they're not supremely qualified (Marc Iavaroni was #2 on the head coaching list, and nearly beat out Leitao), and academic constraints (UVA doesn't let student-athletes gray-shirt, and it's cost us more than 1 player) into this mix. Though I could. As a result, what you see here is a system that's created a perfect storm, of sorts, to have UVA's revenue sports lie in mediocrity. For every good hire Littlepage has made (Brian O'Connor for baseball, for example), he's made one subpar one (Al Groh, football). As long as the minor goods can overshadow the obvious bads, like they do for the three reasons I've mentioned above, UVA will seldom be better than mediocre in the revenue sports. It's a painful, bitter pill to swallow. And I've choked it down with agony with loss after heartbreaking loss. And it'll be no different Saturday. Edited November 27, 2008 by UVAObserver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norseman 10 Report Share Posted November 27, 2008 You're right, O'Connor is a good coach. What was the main selling point for Leitao when he got hired? Was he supposed to be a great recruiter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTCC22 10 Report Share Posted December 3, 2008 UVa would have had a decent football team if they would have had Vic Hall in at QB all season. He did a great job against VT. leaving Vic Hall on the bench in the 4th quarter was almost as dumb as VT putting Glennon in the game. Just out right DUMB!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 UVa would have had a decent football team if they would have had Vic Hall in at QB all season. He did a great job against VT. leaving Vic Hall on the bench in the 4th quarter was almost as dumb as VT putting Glennon in the game. Just out right DUMB!!! This is typical UVA football. Make one incredibly gutsy move, then one brainless/inexplicable move. It's so typical, and it makes me sick. Early word is that Mike Groh is gone, unconfirmed of course. More may follow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgerwahoo 16 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 UVAobservor, you could not be more right.....but..... I have been following, rooting, shouting for, yelling at, and wondering why with UVA for over 20 years now. I have 3 scrap books with nothing but Ralph Sampson clippings, I can tell you exactly where I was and who I was watching the game with when UVA beat Florida State on that glorious night in Charlottesville. I have been through the high with Terry Holland and George Welsh, and I have been through the lows with some of UVA's less performing years. Night after night this football season, I have fumed and fussed on-line with posters on ESPN game trackers defeinding UVA....and I will continue to do so. My biggest point I try to make when feuding with those who like to put UVA down for their sub-par performances is that they may do bad on Saturday, but you can guarntee they will be in class on Monday and they will graduate with their class. People seem to forget sometimes that we send our kids to college for an education, not a national championship......As long as UVA maintians the academic standards that they prided the university on for years now, I can leave with the sup-par performances. When I see UVA stoop to the level of the TOP programs that only have an average graduation rate of 50 to 60 percent(UVA's was 95 last time I checked among student athletes) I will then stop my admiration for UVA.....when they have sold out to BIG BUSINESS COLLEGE ATHLETICS at the expense of education, then I will stop rooting for them and yelling at the TV......I guess I will then start going to Emory and Henry games or something......As much as we love to see our favorite University go ALL the way....I would much rather see our youth as individuals in the real world go ALL the way.... As far as Littltpage, Groh, and Laito are concerned....I think they feel the same as I and many others do....education is what the kids are there for....not to sell TV rights for next weeks BIG game Thats the way I see it. Wrong or right, I cant say for sure....just my opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) UVAobservor, you could not be more right.....but.....I have been following, rooting, shouting for, yelling at, and wondering why with UVA for over 20 years now. I have 3 scrap books with nothing but Ralph Sampson clippings, I can tell you exactly where I was and who I was watching the game with when UVA beat Florida State on that glorious night in Charlottesville. I have been through the high with Terry Holland and George Welsh, and I have been through the lows with some of UVA's less performing years. Night after night this football season, I have fumed and fussed on-line with posters on ESPN game trackers defeinding UVA....and I will continue to do so. My biggest point I try to make when feuding with those who like to put UVA down for their sub-par performances is that they may do bad on Saturday, but you can guarntee they will be in class on Monday and they will graduate with their class. People seem to forget sometimes that we send our kids to college for an education, not a national championship......As long as UVA maintians the academic standards that they prided the university on for years now, I can leave with the sup-par performances. When I see UVA stoop to the level of the TOP programs that only have an average graduation rate of 50 to 60 percent(UVA's was 95 last time I checked among student athletes) I will then stop my admiration for UVA.....when they have sold out to BIG BUSINESS COLLEGE ATHLETICS at the expense of education, then I will stop rooting for them and yelling at the TV......I guess I will then start going to Emory and Henry games or something......As much as we love to see our favorite University go ALL the way....I would much rather see our youth as individuals in the real world go ALL the way.... As far as Littltpage, Groh, and Laito are concerned....I think they feel the same as I and many others do....education is what the kids are there for....not to sell TV rights for next weeks BIG game Thats the way I see it. Wrong or right, I cant say for sure....just my opinion GREAT point, Ron. And I agree: producing fine, upstanding men is a higher priority than winning a national title or playing in BCS games 3 out of every 4 years (like USC, LSU, etc.). I'd gladly trade never winning a national title and selling out to being the proto-typical "State U" if our program continues to produce fine, proven leaders. However, I have two glaring concerns right now. First, in the short term, there have been a fair number of young men who haven't upheld the standards that we as Virginia fans would like to see them uphold. We have players such as Chris Cook being charged with grand larceny, Brooks's desire to toke up without regard to his status on the team, Fitzgerald leaving due to Honor Code violations, Lalich's probation violations, and for a local example-Bradshaw's actions. Though I believe that the ultimate responsibility lies with the players and that Groh has almost without exception made the right move, I'd like to see a new coach recruit a slightly different style of player, if that makes any sense at all. Keeping the Coppers and the Longs and the Sintims and the Peermans, but not bringing in the bad eggs. Doing a better job of coaching the players who may lack a bit in athleticism, instead of only seeing results with the upper crust of guys. Second, I don't think it has to be mutually exclusive to have a team that occasionaly/regularly competes for ACC titles (and not Coastal titles) and maintain the level of respectability within the program. Grobe at Wake Forest is a fair model of how this plan can work (and a UVA Alum, imagine that). Though Groh generally crafts upstanding men, he fails in the second prong of fielding a fiercely competitive team. It's not the easiest task in the world, but it certainly can be done. And thanks for helping me to reminisce about some of the great times in UVA history. I needed that. :) Edited December 4, 2008 by UVAObserver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dodgerwahoo 16 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 No problem....I think of the good times too when I see a screen pass threw for no reason with the lead and only 2 minutes to go in the game, LOL, or when we cant seem to get the ball in the low post when it is obvious it is there....lol..... You are right in every respect. There can be better results from the players we have and can bring in....you have to figure they are some of the smarter kids in the nation...they have to be to go to UVA......My only solice is that the players you mentioned were dismissed without no hesitation....other programs(choke choke Florida State, Texas, Florida, and as much as it disheartens me, VT) have not made the decision of dismissal as quick...they have tended to look over acedemics and bad character decisions to make sure they have who they want on the field on Saturday, on the court in March, and even on the baseball diamond in the summer. There can be a competitive program with strict acedemic and character standards. I honestly thought with Groh, it would succed. As much as the general opinion is to get rid of him, I would like them to give him one more year....give him a chance to show us if the 72 Freshmen and Sophmores he had this year could use the vast experience they received this year, (he played alot of them) to make a competitive run this year..... Again, one mans opinion...Have a good evening observer Go HOOS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 Today is Day 1,466 of Virginia Tech's continuous possession of the Commonwealth Cup...but we all know UVA's "real rival" is UNC... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegendatLegion 109 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 UVAobservor, you could not be more right.....but.....I have been following, rooting, shouting for, yelling at, and wondering why with UVA for over 20 years now. I have 3 scrap books with nothing but Ralph Sampson clippings, I hate to admit it but i have a ton of stuff on Ralph too and one scrapbook.... I rem the ACC basketball championship they won with Marc Ivaroni, etc... I remember the Peach Bowl where they got too conservative, Thomas Jones was running all over the field and they were behind a point or two and they decided to line up a field goal and not stay aggressive and the kicker missed the fg and they lost. That was really the biggest and only complaint on Welsh was he got a little conservativve and played not to lose a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Today is Day 1,466 of Virginia Tech's continuous possession of the Commonwealth Cup...but we all know UVA's "real rival" is UNC... The day count marking a lack of an NCAA team national title for Virginia Tech is over 38,000. Your point is? Edited December 4, 2008 by UVAObserver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 I remember the Peach Bowl where they got too conservative, Thomas Jones was running all over the field and they were behind a point or two and they decided to line up a field goal and not stay aggressive and the kicker missed the fg and they lost. That was really the biggest and only complaint on Welsh was he got a little conservativve and played not to lose a lot. That's pretty much spot on. Even the old salt didn't do this as well as Groh in big games in the past several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 The day count marking a lack of an NCAA team national title for Virginia Tech is over 38,000. Your point is? I love Al Groh??? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTCC22 10 Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 The day count marking a lack of an NCAA team national title for Virginia Tech is over 38,000. Your point is? Wow thats a kick in Beamer's groin. They did make it their once in the last 10 years atleast. Florida State was just too darn good, lol. I dont think Im old enough to remember when UVa even got that far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2008 (edited) Wow thats a kick in Beamer's groin. They did make it their once in the last 10 years atleast. Florida State was just too darn good, lol. I dont think Im old enough to remember when UVa even got that far. Making it there ≠ ultimate triumph. Ask Bob Stoops or Jim Tressel how it feels when they lost their 2 games compared to when they won their 1 (Jim Tressel's barely counts, due to the bogus PI call). Better yet, ask any old-school WVU fans if making it there is the same as winning it. They've got a much better perspective from which to tell you this. VT's defense, at its best, is good enough to win national championships. VT's offense, at its best, is solely good enough to keep its BCS game close. Until this changes, VT will never win a national title at FB. It's likely they may never win one, period. Every year, the window closes just a smidge more. And I'm sure you'd agree, you'd rather have your school and athletic program win a national title in lacrosse/soccer or another niche sport than being an also-ran in its area of expertise, no? Yes, UVA's made just 1 Sugar Bowl in its time. Lost to Tennessee by 1 point, too. Blew a lead while doing it. UVA's been ranked #1 in football before. It's been 18 years, but it's happened. Again, both of these were under Welsh. Groh promised to "take this team to the next level". He's had 4 opportunities (FSU '04, MIA '04, VT '04, VT '07), and he's failed on his promise. Time to cut the cord, for all that's good. Edited December 4, 2008 by UVAObserver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTCC22 10 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 VT's defense, at its best, is good enough to win national championships. VT's offense, at its best, is solely good enough to keep its BCS game close. Until this changes, VT will never win a national title at FB. It's likely they may never win one, period. Every year, the window closes just a smidge more. And I'm sure you'd agree, you'd rather have your school and athletic program win a national title in lacrosse/soccer or another niche sport than being an also-ran in its area of expertise, no? I dont care what sport they won a national title in as long as they get one. Dont get me wrong though, I would love to see them get atleast 1 NC as a football team. Hopefully oneday they will. It may not be until Beamer retires. Maybe its time for him to step down and give someone else a chance, like Bud Foster. Or VT needs to atleast get rid of Stinespring. Beamer + Stinespring ≠ National Championship. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 I dont care what sport they won a national title in as long as they get one. Dont get me wrong though, I would love to see them get atleast 1 NC as a football team. Hopefully oneday they will. It may not be until Beamer retires. Maybe its time for him to step down and give someone else a chance, like Bud Foster. Or VT needs to atleast get rid of Stinespring. Beamer + Stinespring ≠ National Championship. Bud Foster seems like the guy who'd be an excellent DC, but a mediocre head coach. He wouldn't be able to pay the adequate attention to making the defense VT's calling-card, and the new DC hired would not be of the same caliber he is. Likewise, he's overseeing the whole operation now, and no one knows how that'll turn out until he does it. But your last sentence is dead on, I'll give you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VTCC22 10 Report Share Posted December 5, 2008 Bud Foster seems like the guy who'd be an excellent DC, but a mediocre head coach. He wouldn't be able to pay the adequate attention to making the defense VT's calling-card, and the new DC hired would not be of the same caliber he is. Likewise, he's overseeing the whole operation now, and no one knows how that'll turn out until he does it. But your last sentence is dead on, I'll give you that. I agree with that too. However, you never know till you try though. The New DC hiree would be able to receive great advice from Foster. They could help each other. If Beamer leaves, I believe Stinespring would be gone too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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