Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 But those coaches win on a consistent basis in the tourny, and all have a NC to their name. Huggins averages a second round departure. The guys above don't. While many say its better to be lucky than good, I disagree. Its better to have a good coach who can put you in the spot to be lucky. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 But those coaches win on a consistent basis in the tourny, and all have a NC to their name. Huggins averages a second round departure. The guys above don't. While many say its better to be lucky than good, I disagree. Its better to have a good coach who can put you in the spot to be lucky. Ben Howland first came to my mind when I read this post. Sans the NC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I think his 3 consecutive Final Fours speak for themselves. As much as I hate UCLA, he is a great coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I think his 3 consecutive Final Fours speak for themselves. As much as I hate UCLA, he is a great coach. That he truly is. What came to my mind is "putting them in a spot to be lucky". Which is exactly what he did in that epic UCLA/Gonzaga game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 That he truly is. What came to my mind is "putting them in a spot to be lucky". Which is exactly what he did in that epic UCLA/Gonzaga game. But if you are in a spot to be lucky aren't you also in a spot to be unlucky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 But if you are in a spot to be lucky aren't you also in a spot to be unlucky? This is true, but at least you're in the position. And more often than not, it's great coaching that puts players in the position to execute in the moment of truth. Take a long 3-pointer at the buzzer, for example. Bad coaching leaves players out of position on a 3-pointer; good coaching leaves their shooter wide open to take the 3-pointer. I loosely quote Thomas Jefferson when I say "the better you are, the luckier you get." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 This is true, but at least you're in the position. And more often than not, it's great coaching that puts players in the position to execute in the moment of truth. Take a long 3-pointer at the buzzer, for example. Bad coaching leaves players out of position on a 3-pointer; good coaching leaves their shooter wide open to take the 3-pointer. I loosely quote Thomas Jefferson when I say "the better you are, the luckier you get." I agree with most of what you say but when it comes to college kids I think you throw some stuff out the window, especially buzzer beating 3 pointers. One example, when John Beilein was at WVU and they played Texas in the 3rd round game of the 2006 NCAA tourney. Pittsnogle hit a 3 with very few seconds remaining, Texas quickly inbounded the ball, headed up court and hit a 3 with no time remaining. Beilein is a very good coach and teacher but in that "moment" you can throw most of what he taught them out the window because its all emotion and drama at that point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 I agree with most of what you say but when it comes to college kids I think you throw some stuff out the window, especially buzzer beating 3 pointers. One example, when John Beilein was at WVU and they played Texas in the 3rd round game of the 2006 NCAA tourney. Pittsnogle hit a 3 with very few seconds remaining, Texas quickly inbounded the ball, headed up court and hit a 3 with no time remaining. Beilein is a very good coach and teacher but in that "moment" you can throw most of what he taught them out the window because its all emotion and drama at that point. I understand your take, and I appreciate it. And I remember that game, too, quite a fun one to watch. In that moment, there might not be as much coaching. But in the previous 39:50, talent levels being equal, that's when coaching and execution decide the game, IMO. I don't think this is contrary to what you've said, but perhaps something to add on there, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundy10 10 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Coaches put players in the position to make a play. Its up to the player to execute and make the play. That goes in all sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fieldgeneral 10 Report Share Posted March 25, 2009 Umm, just off the top of my head, it means you can win consistently. I mean you have to go to the Final Four to win NC's, and that should be the goal. Off the top of my head, Roy Williams, Coach K, Jim Calhoun, Jim Boeheim, Ben Howland, Rick Pitino, Billy Donovan, and thats just from the recent past. Im sure there are more. But why does this matter? Huggins is 15-14 in the past 15 years in the NCAA tournament, it speaks for itself. Coach K is probably the best coach out there, but he hasn't been the big one in 8 years, unless he makes it this year....not going to happen. Does that mean he has fallen off the wagon? Jim Boeheim got one win with Melo, nothing since then, does that mean he has fallen off? His teams haven't been very good until this year since Melo left. Pitino is a great coach, but did he lose his ability to get to the big game since hasn't seen it since Kentucky? Ben Howland seems to get his teams in the right position, but putter's out in the big game or can't get to it. He made 3 straight final fours with very good teams. He lost one championship and two final fours in those three years. Does that mean he's subpar? I think he's done a great job, but he's light years away in the wins column from Huggs. I know Hugg's tournament record was 15-14 as you posted it, but you say you have to get to the final four and win those NC's. If the NC is our measuring stick, what's happening with these guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Coach K is probably the best coach out there, but he hasn't been the big one in 8 years, unless he makes it this year....not going to happen. Does that mean he has fallen off the wagon? Jim Boeheim got one win with Melo, nothing since then, does that mean he has fallen off? His teams haven't been very good until this year since Melo left. Pitino is a great coach, but did he lose his ability to get to the big game since hasn't seen it since Kentucky? Ben Howland seems to get his teams in the right position, but putter's out in the big game or can't get to it. He made 3 straight final fours with very good teams. He lost one championship and two final fours in those three years. Does that mean he's subpar? I think he's done a great job, but he's light years away in the wins column from Huggs. I know Hugg's tournament record was 15-14 as you posted it, but you say you have to get to the final four and win those NC's. If the NC is our measuring stick, what's happening with these guys? Boeheim was much misaligned for some of his tournament failures in the last century. Richmond, anyone? And if K doesn't get it done with this team, there'll be a few rumbles (though nothing to get K concerned in the least). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Syracuse lost to Vermont a few years back in the first round as a 4 seed. Connecticut lost in the first round last year. Duke lost in the first round a few years back. Its March Madness baby. Even the greatest of all time can struggle in the ncaa tourney. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Exactly. But you have to win 2-3 games in a tournament CONSISTENTLY to be a good coach during the tourney, granted you may lose early on occasion. Huggins has not exemplified that whatsoever, except the losing early. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Jim Boeheim 1998-1999 Syracuse 21 12 Lost in NCAA 1st Rd 1999-2000 Syracuse 26 6 Lost in NCAA Sweet 16 2000-2001 Syracuse 25 9 Lost in NCAA 2nd Rd 2001-2002 Syracuse 23 13 Lost in NIT Semi-Finals 2002-2003 Syracuse 30 5 National Champions 2003-2004 Syracuse 23 8 Lost in NCAA Sweet 16 2004-2005 Syracuse 27 7 Lost in NCAA 1st Rd 2005-2006 Syracuse 23 12 Lost in NCAA 1st Rd 2006-2007 Syracuse 24 11 Lost in NIT Quarter-Finals 2007-2008 Syracuse 21 14 Lost in NIT Quarter-Finals He had the great Championship run in 2003 with Melo but what else has he done in the pat 10 years? 3 NIT's? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) Correct me if Im wrong, but did I say he was a great coach? Nope. He was just an answer to who made the final four twice. So if he does stink... what does that mean for Huggins? And honestly, I dont know how you can argue this. Is Huggins a good coach? Seems so. Is he a good coach in the NCAA tournament? Seems not. Edited March 26, 2009 by BEAVERTAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 1996-1997 Cincinnati 26-8 14-2 1st NCAA Second Round 1997-1998 Cincinnati 27-6 12-4 1st NCAA Second Round 1998-1999 Cincinnati 27-6 12-4 1st (American) NCAA Second Round 1999-2000 Cincinnati 29-4 16-0 1st (American) NCAA Second Round 2000-2001 Cincinnati 25-10 11-5 1st (American) NCAA Sweet Sixteen 2001-2002 Cincinnati 31-4 14-2 1st (American) NCAA Second Round 2002-2003 Cincinnati 17-12 9-7 T-4th NCAA First Round 2003-2004 Cincinnati 25-7 12-4 T-1st NCAA Second Round 2004-2005 Cincinnati 25-8 12-4 T-2nd NCAA Second Round 2006–2007 Kansas State 23-12 10-6 4th NIT Second Round 2007–2008 West Virginia 26-11 11-7 T-5th NCAA Sweet Sixteen 2008-2009 West Virginia 23-10 10-8 T-7th NCAA First Just so the people know what Huggins has done the past 12 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Once again the point is that A LOT of coaches fail in the NCAA tourney because it is a tough tournament. Most 2nd round games in the tourney are really tough. Just because he has lost in the past doesn't mean he Can't coach in the tournament. Its just simply playing tough competition in games where no one wants to go home. One of those years he lost on a 3 point prayer, last year his team was two missed free throws away from the Elite 8. He lost and it is what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) Its exactly what it is. He is sub par in the tournament. Face the facts. Every coach has to play against the lucky shots, the buzzer beaters, the injuries. Coaching is all about overcoming them when every game matters. Huggins has work to do in the tournament department, and anyone can see that. And just for the sake of it, in the last 11 appearances of the teams Huggins has coached in the NCAAs, he won 12 games. Boeheim has 12 wins in 6 appearances not including this year. Edited March 26, 2009 by BEAVERTAIL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 How can you overcome something that is out of your control? How can you control a player making a contested three point prayer? How can you control a very good free throw shooter to hit his free throws in the final seconds?? So it is what it is. Its the NCAA tournament, once again several coaches struggle to consistently making it past the first few rounds. PERIOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Name the mystery coach: 1993–1994 21–9 12–6 3rd NCAA Sweet Sixteen 1994–1995 19–12 11–7 T-3rd NCAA First Round 1995–1996 19–12 12–6 T-2nd NCAA First Round 1996–1997 22–11 9–9 T-6th NCAA First Round 1997–1998 20–12 9–7 T-5th NCAA Second Round 1998–1999 23–11 9–7 T-3rd NCAA Second Round 1999–2000 20–9 10–6 5th NCAA First Round 2001–2002 23–9 10–6 T–3rd NCAA First Round 2002–2003 22–13 6–10 T–7th NIT Semifinals 2003–2004 23–11 9–7 T–5th NCAA Second Round 2004–2005 22–11 10–6 4th NCAA Sweet Sixteen 2005–2006 15–17 6–10 T–7th — 2006–2007 21–13 9–7 5th NCAA First Round 2007–2008 12–8* 3–3* T–6th* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grundy10 10 Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 (edited) I hope you arent referring to Bob, I have more wins than any other men's division 1 coach EVER, Knight and his 5 final fours and 3 National Championships including the last undefeated season? Edited March 26, 2009 by Grundy10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BEAVERTAIL Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 Too easy. Bob Knight. You could have easily posted the ten year stretch where he went to the elite 8 two times, Final four once, and won the championship (4 different years). Dang it grundy 10, i knew i shouldnt have looked for stats to back me up, now you beat me to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 I hope you arent referring to Bob Knight and his 5 final fours and 3 National Championships including the last undfeated season? It is indeed Bobby Knight and the last 13 or so years of his career. He did much of nothing in those years by your standards. Also, there is no way you can compare NCAA basketball from the time he won those championships to now. Its a different game, and the 10 or more years of his career proved that. I could provide a long list of other mystery coaches who have similar track records of first and second round exits. Not a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 2003–2004 31-5 13-3 1st NCAA Sweet 16 2004–2005 20-9 10-6 5th NCAA 1st Round 2005–2006 25-8 10-6 T-4th NCAA 2nd Round 2006–2007 29-8 12-4 T-2nd NCAA Sweet 16 2007–2008 27-10 10-8 7th NCAA 2nd Round 2008-2009 30-4 15-3 2nd NCAA Sweet 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JJBrickface Report Share Posted March 26, 2009 1999–2000 26-9 11-3 2nd NCAA Sweet 16 2000–2001 26-7 13-1 1st NCAA Sweet 16 2001–2002 29-4 13-1 T-1st NCAA 1st Round 2002–2003 24-9 11-3 1st NCAA 2nd Round 2003–2004 28-3 14-0 1st NCAA 2nd Round 2004–2005 26-5 12-2 1st NCAA 2nd Round 2005–2006 29-4 14-0 1st NCAA Sweet 16 2006–2007 23-11 11-3 1st NCAA 1st Round 2007–2008 25-8 13-1 1st NCAA 1st Round Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.01bb665814ffc257795fe158cb2045c7.png.8a531ac878a82772b21014d7a6167582.png){kind=logo}
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.