Wisconsin Mess

[bucfan64 309]

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/145033-wisconsin-gov-gop-emboldened-by-protests-

 

Funny how the Dems claim to be "standing with the people of Wisconsin," when they are actually running out of state and going against what the voters selected in November.

 

Is this an ANTI-UNION measure or is the Governor just doing what is right by trying to be fiscally responsible?

 

I argue that this is exactly what some uber-left groups want to happen, protests and eventual riots over austerity measures. This is starting to spread into Ohio, Michigan and it appears Minnesota..........who is next?

[Deleted Account 5,203]

It's the epitome of 2000s government.

 

See a fix that needs to be made (removing the insane leverage teachers' unions have), and made the WORST possible fix in the WORST possible way. The old adage is true: measure twice, cut once. The legislators in Wisconsin started cutting the wood as soon as they got it off the truck...

[Hacker 82]

It's the epitome of 2000s government.

 

See a fix that needs to be made (removing the insane leverage teachers' unions have), and made the WORST possible fix in the WORST possible way. The old adage is true: measure twice, cut once. The legislators in Wisconsin started cutting the wood as soon as they got it off the truck...

 

Unilateral action to cancel negotiated contracts is definitely a new move from a state. I doubt it would stand a court test. Wouldn't it be better to use the process to gain the concessions needed, and then failing that look to other options.

 

A quarter century working in the public sector tells me that public employees should not have certain labor rights found in the private sector, since certain functions are essential and provide undue negotiating leverage for the unions. (i.e. police, fire, sanitation, education) But to unilaterally take away rights freely negotiated is a scary precedent.

Edited February 18, 2011 by Hacker

[bucfan64 309]

A quarter century working in the public sector tells me that public employees should not have certain labor rights found in the private sector, since certain functions are essential and provide undue negotiating leverage for the unions. (i.e. police, fire, sanitation, education) But to unilaterally take away rights freely negotiated is a scary precedent.

 

This is DEAD ON!

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Unilateral action to cancel negotiated contracts is definitely a new move from a state. I doubt it would stand a court test. Wouldn't it be better to use the process to gain the concessions needed, and then failing that look to other options.

 

A quarter century working in the public sector tells me that public employees should not have certain labor rights found in the private sector, since certain functions are essential and provide undue negotiating leverage for the unions. (i.e. police, fire, sanitation, education) But to unilaterally take away rights freely negotiated is a scary precedent.

 

Very true, and I completely agree on everything you posted.

[vthokies4life 10]

Scott Walker's response from the Wall Street Journal:

 

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704132204576190260787805984.html#articleTabs%3Darticle

 

In 2010, Megan Sampson was named an Outstanding First Year Teacher in Wisconsin. A week later, she got a layoff notice from the Milwaukee Public Schools. Why would one of the best new teachers in the state be one of the first let go? Because her collective-bargaining contract requires staffing decisions to be made based on seniority.

 

Ms. Sampson got a layoff notice because the union leadership would not accept reasonable changes to their contract. Instead, they hid behind a collective-bargaining agreement that costs the taxpayers $101,091 per year for each teacher, protects a 0% contribution for health-insurance premiums, and forces schools to hire and fire based on seniority and union rules.

 

My state's budget-repair bill, which passed the Assembly on Feb. 25 and awaits a vote in the Senate, reforms this union-controlled hiring and firing process by allowing school districts to assign staff based on merit and performance. That keeps great teachers like Ms. Sampson in the classroom.

 

Most states in the country are facing a major budget deficit. Many are cutting billions of dollars of aid to schools and local governments. These cuts lead to massive layoffs or increases in property taxes—or both.

 

In Wisconsin, we have a better approach to tackling our $3.6 billion deficit. We are reforming the way government works, as well as balancing our budget. Our reform plan gives state and local governments the tools to balance the budget through reasonable benefit contributions. In total, our budget-repair bill saves local governments almost $1.5 billion, outweighing the reductions in state aid in our budget.

 

While it might be a bold political move, the changes are modest. We ask government workers to make a 5.8% contribution to their pensions and a 12.6% contribution to their health-insurance premium, both of which are well below what other workers pay for benefits. Our plan calls for Wisconsin state workers to contribute half of what federal employees pay for their health-insurance premiums. (It's also worth noting that most federal workers don't have collective bargaining for wages and benefits.)

 

For example, my brother works as a banquet manager at a hotel and occasionally works as a bartender. My sister-in-law works at a department store. They have two beautiful kids. They are a typical middle-class Wisconsin family. At the start of this debate, David reminded me that he pays nearly $800 per month for his family's health-insurance premium and a modest 401(k) contribution. He said most workers in Wisconsin would love a deal like the one we are proposing.

 

The unions say they are ready to accept concessions, yet their actions speak louder than words. Over the past three weeks, local unions across the state have pursued contracts without new pension or health-insurance contributions. Their rhetoric does not match their record on this issue.

 

Local governments can't pass budgets on a hope and a prayer. Beyond balancing budgets, our reforms give schools—as well as state and local governments—the tools to reward productive workers and improve their operations. Most crucially, our reforms confront the barriers of collective bargaining that currently block innovation and reform.

 

When Gov. Mitch Daniels repealed collective bargaining in Indiana six years ago, it helped government become more efficient and responsive. The average pay for Indiana state employees has actually increased, and high-performing employees are rewarded with pay increases or bonuses when they do something exceptional.

 

Passing our budget-repair bill will help put similar reforms into place in Wisconsin. This will be good for the Badger State's hard-working taxpayers. It will also be good for state and local government employees who overwhelmingly want to do their jobs well.

 

In Wisconsin, we can avoid the massive teacher layoffs that schools are facing across America. Our budget-repair bill is a commitment to the future so our children won't face even more dire consequences than we face today, and teachers like Ms. Sampson are rewarded—not laid off.

 

Taking on the status quo is no easy task. Each day, there are protesters in and around our state Capitol. They have every right to be heard. But their voices cannot drown out the voices of the countless taxpayers who want us to balance our budgets and, more importantly, to make government work for each of them.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

You know, Walker's response makes a heck of a lot of sense...

[bhs7695 185]

It's the same thing Governor Chris Christie tried to tackle in New Jersey. When he took office, he asked the teacher's union to take a pay freeze for one year and contribute 1.5% of their salaries to a pension and benefits plan. Christie said he would guarantee not one teacher would be laid off and the immediate response from the union was: "You can go to hell!" The teachers are not paying ANYTHING from their salaries into their pension and benefits packages currently.

 

The company I work for asked the union that is over our WV operations for a one year pay freeze and our management guaranteed not one union employee would be laid off. The union's response to our management team was: "You can go to Hell!" Layoffs started happening a few days later.

[bucfan64 309]

Why I left the NEA.

 

http://flamekeepersusa.blogspot.com/

[Guest The Variable]

But to unilaterally take away rights freely negotiated is a scary precedent.

 

Its a conflict of interest, since taxpayer money goes into public unions which then get used as political leverage for whichever politician decides to support their will the most.

 

Collective bargaining also takes away an individuals right to negotiate in any industry. Since we are not really a democracy and more of a constitutional republic geared towards idividual rights, I find collective bargaining in its current practice to be quite against the intent of our nation.

 

Like UVAO said, Walkers explanation makes a hell of a lot of sense.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

It's the same thing Governor Chris Christie tried to tackle in New Jersey. When he took office, he asked the teacher's union to take a pay freeze for one year and contribute 1.5% of their salaries to a pension and benefits plan. Christie said he would guarantee not one teacher would be laid off and the immediate response from the union was: "You can go to hell!" The teachers are not paying ANYTHING from their salaries into their pension and benefits packages currently.

 

The company I work for asked the union that is over our WV operations for a one year pay freeze and our management guaranteed not one union employee would be laid off. The union's response to our management team was: "You can go to Hell!" Layoffs started happening a few days later.

 

I know I might get flamed by some, but any fool can see that a union is in the game in this day and age to protect the union's interest and NOT the interest of those it represents. This is just a perfect example.

 

Though you'll never hear this from CNN, Indiana did this exact same thing 6 years ago. Indiana's schools have done exceedingly well since 2005.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Why I left the NEA.

 

http://flamekeepersusa.blogspot.com/

 

Good read, and damning to the NEA.

[Guest The Variable]

I know I might get flamed by some, but any fool can see that a union is in the game in this day and age to protect the union's interest and NOT the interest of those it represents. This is just a perfect example.

 

Though you'll never hear this from CNN, Indiana did this exact same thing 6 years ago. Indiana's schools have done exceedingly well since 2005.

 

How about Virginia schools. God bless right-to-work states.

[Hacker 82]

I truly love how some elected officials have chosen to demonize one group for all the budgetary ills. The one fact that all of them are avoiding is that it is these very same elected officials who agree to the union contracts. They are the very ones who want to make sure that their constituents at home get another slice of the pork. They are also the ones who will spend every tax dollar that comes in with nary a thought of the fact that economies are cyclical and that reserves should be built in up times to make sure you have enough for the lean.

 

I remind everyone, that contracts are not negotiated in a vacuum. The father (politicians) bear the same responsibility as the mother (unions) for the child.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

How about Virginia schools. God bless right-to-work states.

 

+1!

[Guest The Variable]

I truly love how some elected officials have chosen to demonize one group for all the budgetary ills. The one fact that all of them are avoiding is that it is these very same elected officials who agree to the union contracts. They are the very ones who want to make sure that their constituents at home get another slice of the pork. They are also the ones who will spend every tax dollar that comes in with nary a thought of the fact that economies are cyclical and that reserves should be built in up times to make sure you have enough for the lean.

 

I remind everyone, that contracts are not negotiated in a vacuum. The father (politicians) bear the same responsibility as the mother (unions) for the child.

 

I am far from calling Walker a hero, but I must stand by his decision here. People are giving him crap for making WI more attractive to business, but that is an investment in future industry for his state.

 

What you explained here is exactly why I never became a member of the GOP. They do not share my sentiment on Government but they use it as their platform. They are part of the greater problem. I am hoping more of us sensible people start to seek office.

[bucfan64 309]

Wisconsin GOP Senators recevied this email shortly following the vote.

 

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The following is a shocking, scary e-mail sent to Wisconsin GOP senators last night at around 9:30 pm, shortly after the Senate passed an anti-union bill. Not only does the e-mail threaten the senators with death, but it also vows “your familes [sic] will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks.”

 

Local station WTMJ in Milwaukee obtained the e-mail, and has redacted the sender’s name pending an investigation by the police (emphasis added and spelling and grammar mistakes have not been corrected):

 

From: XXXX

Sent: Wed 3/9/2011 9:18 PM

To: Sen.Kapanke; Sen.Darling; Sen.Cowles; Sen.Ellis; Sen.Fitzgerald; Sen.Galloway; Sen.Grothman; Sen.Harsdorf; Sen.Hopper; Sen.Kedzie; Sen.Lasee; Sen.Lazich; Sen.Leibham; Sen.Moulton; Sen.Olsen

Subject: Atten: Death threat!!!! Bomb!!!!

 

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes

will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain

to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it

will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit

that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for

more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

 

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in

the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me

have decided that we’ve had enough. We feel that you and the people that

support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing

with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand

for it any longer. So, this is how it’s going to happen: I as well as many

others know where you and your family live, it’s a matter of public records.

We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a

nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn’t leave

it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the

message to you since you are so “high” on Koch and have decided that you are

now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a

demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed

in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.

This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won’t

tell you all of them because that’s just no fun. Since we know that you are

not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided

to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it’s

necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making

them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families

and themselves then We Will “get rid of” (in which I mean kill) you. Please

understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked

everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel

that it’s worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives

of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and

say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

I thought the radical left was all about peace and love and stuff.....imagine how crazy the mainstream media would be if a Tea Partier sent this thing?.....this story is far from over...

[Guest The Variable]

I want to know what these folks have got against the Goonies...that movie was awesome.

[ThomasDenton 79]

Wisconsin GOP Senators recevied this email shortly following the vote.

 

////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

The following is a shocking, scary e-mail sent to Wisconsin GOP senators last night at around 9:30 pm, shortly after the Senate passed an anti-union bill. Not only does the e-mail threaten the senators with death, but it also vows “your familes [sic] will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks.â€

 

Local station WTMJ in Milwaukee obtained the e-mail, and has redacted the sender’s name pending an investigation by the police (emphasis added and spelling and grammar mistakes have not been corrected):

 

From: XXXX

Sent: Wed 3/9/2011 9:18 PM

To: Sen.Kapanke; Sen.Darling; Sen.Cowles; Sen.Ellis; Sen.Fitzgerald; Sen.Galloway; Sen.Grothman; Sen.Harsdorf; Sen.Hopper; Sen.Kedzie; Sen.Lasee; Sen.Lazich; Sen.Leibham; Sen.Moulton; Sen.Olsen

Subject: Atten: Death threat!!!! Bomb!!!!

 

Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes

will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain

to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it

will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit

that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for

more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.

 

WE want to make this perfectly clear. Because of your actions today and in

the past couple of weeks I and the group of people that are working with me

have decided that we’ve had enough. We feel that you and the people that

support the dictator have to die. We have tried many other ways of dealing

with your corruption but you have taken things too far and we will not stand

for it any longer. So, this is how it’s going to happen: I as well as many

others know where you and your family live, it’s a matter of public records.

We have all planned to assult you by arriving at your house and putting a

nice little bullet in your head. However, we decided that we wouldn’t leave

it there. We also have decided that this may not be enough to send the

message to you since you are so “high†on Koch and have decided that you are

now going to single handedly make this a dictatorship instead of a

demorcratic process. So we have also built several bombs that we have placed

in various locations around the areas in which we know that you frequent.

This includes, your house, your car, the state capitol, and well I won’t

tell you all of them because that’s just no fun. Since we know that you are

not smart enough to figure out why this is happening to you we have decided

to make it perfectly clear to you. If you and your goonies feel that it’s

necessary to strip the rights of 300,000 people and ruin their lives, making

them unable to feed, clothe, and provide the necessities to their families

and themselves then We Will “get rid of†(in which I mean kill) you. Please

understand that this does not include the heroic Rep. Senator that risked

everything to go aganist what you and your goonies wanted him to do. We feel

that it’s worth our lives to do this, because we would be saving the lives

of 300,000 people. Please make your peace with God as soon as possible and

say goodbye to your loved ones we will not wait any longer. YOU WILL DIE!!!!

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

I thought the radical left was all about peace and love and stuff.....imagine how crazy the mainstream media would be if a Tea Partier sent this thing?.....this story is far from over...

 

Seriously?! We're talking about union rights and money, not a freaking holocaust-like threat that needs to be put down. Whoever wrote this is insane! This whole political party split democracy crap is just going too far. It's bad enough when politicians can't agree on anything, but then psychos like this do these kinds of things. I don't really like politics or anything and so I usually just ignore them, but I have been paying attention to this because I'm studying to be a teacher and I agree wholeheartedly that teachers need to be payed/hired/fired based on merit (the only problem there is how to tell if a teacher is good or not because standardized testing is a joke). I think all this is going way too far and with this email, all that anyone is accomplishing is giving liberals, unions, and such a very bad name. It's like they're all supposedly peace loving and all for equal rights and such, but when things don't go their way, they turn into an ugly beast. It's either their way or nothing, despite all the equal rights and freedoms speeches. At least that's all I'm getting out of this.

[bucfan64 309]

Seriously?! We're talking about union rights and money, not a freaking holocaust-like threat that needs to be put down. Whoever wrote this is insane! This whole political party split democracy crap is just going too far. It's bad enough when politicians can't agree on anything, but then psychos like this do these kinds of things. I don't really like politics or anything and so I usually just ignore them, but I have been paying attention to this because I'm studying to be a teacher and I agree wholeheartedly that teachers need to be payed/hired/fired based on merit (the only problem there is how to tell if a teacher is good or not because standardized testing is a joke). I think all this is going way too far and with this email, all that anyone is accomplishing is giving liberals, unions, and such a very bad name. It's like they're all supposedly peace loving and all for equal rights and such, but when things don't go their way, they turn into an ugly beast. It's either their way or nothing, despite all the equal rights and freedoms speeches. At least that's all I'm getting out of this.

 

That is exactly what you are supposed to be getting out of this. The radical left follows a philosophy, "the ends justify the means," and if violence is the answer then they will resort to it. While at the same time criticizing and condemning anyone that disagrees with them.

[Hacker 82]

That is exactly what you are supposed to be getting out of this. The radical left follows a philosophy, "the ends justify the means," and if violence is the answer then they will resort to it. While at the same time criticizing and condemning anyone that disagrees with them.

 

I must remind that the radical right has espoused the same approach and have folks have been willing to go beyond threats to action. McVeigh, the Olympic Bomber and the guys shooting doctors who perform abortions come to mind. In recent years both extremes have ratcheted up the rhetoric, and have done nothing to solve the problem by doing so.

 

Extremist action by anyone is counterproductive. Our Country's problems and divides are serious and it is past time for both sides to cool the extremism and start to work together to find middle ground.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

I must remind that the radical right has espoused the same approach and have folks have been willing to go beyond threats to action. McVeigh, the Olympic Bomber and the guys shooting doctors who perform abortions come to mind. In recent years both extremes have ratcheted up the rhetoric, and have done nothing to solve the problem by doing so.

 

Extremist action by anyone is counterproductive. Our Country's problems and divides are serious and it is past time for both sides to cool the extremism and start to work together to find middle ground.

 

I think you're right. Those on both the right and the left fail to see that the sword cuts both ways. Though I anecdotal find that those on the left are a little more unwilling to find wrong in their own party's actions.

 

In the end, I don't think it'll change. The more divisive we as a nation become, the more each side will cling to its own desires and the more divisive we become. A vicious little cycle. There's going to have to be cataclysmic change to get things to where we all desire, IMO.

[Guest The Variable]

I must remind that the radical right has espoused the same approach and have folks have been willing to go beyond threats to action. McVeigh, the Olympic Bomber and the guys shooting doctors who perform abortions come to mind. In recent years both extremes have ratcheted up the rhetoric, and have done nothing to solve the problem by doing so.

 

Extremist action by anyone is counterproductive. Our Country's problems and divides are serious and it is past time for both sides to cool the extremism and start to work together to find middle ground.

 

 

The difference to me is, the radical left is more thoroughly ingrained in our political process than the right. I dont want either involved, and since the radical right seems to shun government, the most worrisome to me is the left, which seems to use government as a blanket to snuggle up into our lives and suck the life out of us.

 

The radical right is a concern of law enforcement almost exclusively...the radical left is something that concerns us all.

[bucfan64 309]

I must remind that the radical right has espoused the same approach and have folks have been willing to go beyond threats to action. McVeigh, the Olympic Bomber and the guys shooting doctors who perform abortions come to mind. In recent years both extremes have ratcheted up the rhetoric, and have done nothing to solve the problem by doing so.

 

Extremist action by anyone is counterproductive. Our Country's problems and divides are serious and it is past time for both sides to cool the extremism and start to work together to find middle ground.

 

I completely agree, extremist action is counterproductive however in my opinion there can never be a middle ground found between the two extremes.

 

When one compares the radical extremes to which each group will go, the left far exceeds anything the conservative right has been able to produce. The simple reason being the left has always been more organized than the right. When it comes to collective thuggery the left has been more "successful," than the right for years.

[Hacker 82]

The radical left has historically included the Socialists, the IWW and a few dramatically unsuccessful groups like the Yuppies and the Black Panthers.

 

Conversely some would say the the radical right includes the Moral Majority, some Evangelical groups, the John Birch Society and the Klan (especially in the 1920s.) All are far more organized and successful than their leftists counterparts. The radical right groups managed to get large numbers of left of center leaning groups branded Communist Sympathizers in the 1950s. Some would argue that the Radical Right has its own mainstream media source; FOX News. (I think Murdoch is a cynical buzzard who cares less for politics and more for sensationalism that makes him $$$.)

 

If you want to throw the "Progressives" in the mix, they were mostly center-left to center-right intellectuals. Some of their ideas and theories of "Social Engineering" have been perverted by extremists on both sides. (i.e. eugenics Nazi Germany and forced sterilizations in the US until the 1970s.)

 

Obviously, I am not including the true fringe groups that are the most frightening. They prefer to stay veiled.