World on Fire!

[bucfan64 309]

In September of 2011 President Obama addressed the UN and praised the "Arab Spring" in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya. He compared the uprising to the marches at Selma and other civil rights moments in history.

 

Things are heating up! Once again, we find out that appeasement doesn't work!

 

Now this is what I call CHANGE we can believe in (sarcasm)

 

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/09/14/Islamists-around-world-set-fire

Edited September 14, 2012 by bucfan64

[Hacker 82]

It doesn't help when extremists on both sides are intentionally inciting the situation to serve their own ends.

[mavsgrad 28]

How many late night talk shows and other tv shows openly mock Christianity and while there are small lunatic groups like Westboro Baptist church who are completely wrong and insane, you still don't see Christians murdering people and setting buildings on fire. You can't reason with people like that and America's leaders and citizens need to quit kidding themselves. Peace doesn't come through passivity and apology.

[ghs73 157]

How many late night talk shows and other tv shows openly mock Christianity and while there are small lunatic groups like Westboro Baptist church who are completely wrong and insane, you still don't see Christians murdering people and setting buildings on fire. You can't reason with people like that and America's leaders and citizens need to quit kidding themselves. Peace doesn't come through passivity and apology.

 

get your guns ready it will be on our doorstep if something is not done to show strength instead of usa weakness abroad.

[redtiger 1,742]

Its not as simple as America producing a show of strength. Its kind of like a grown man fighting a teenage boy, he may run his mouth and harass you but if you hit him you look like a jackass. The cowards that are on the street burning flags and killing people would run and hide among innocents if Americas armed forces moved in, then were back in the same type of situation as Afganistan or Iraq. You cant tell who is friend and who is foe and every move you make is a bad one.

 

The choices are either move toward an isolationist approach which is a bad move for economic reasons and is in alot of ways irresponsible or stand firm, take our lumps and try to help those that need it(remember these protesters/terrorists are a very vocal and widely viewed minority). Me personally, remove our people and money from the countries that allow these type of acts to take place and make the countries responsible for their people.

 

The simple fact is the United States is not the world power it once was; we are hurting too much at home and dont have the $ or the will to be that force anymore

 

My opnion on the Middle Eastern countries is this; Democracy is something a group of people has to come to, they cant be forced, helped or encouraged. Until they can come to Democracy it has to be tyranny that rules. Until the group decides to think logically and accept ideas/views that they dont necessarily agree with and put their issues/differences aside then they cannot be helped. We need to get out of the Middle East asap. The Arab Spring was their chance to make something of their selves, to show that they could move out from under tyranny and they chose to let their own countries destroy themselves. I do believe that we need to continue our support of Israel, since we created that whole mess in the first place.

Edited September 15, 2012 by redtiger

[redtiger 1,742]

Its not as simple as America producing a show of strength. Its kind of like a grown man fighting a teenage boy, he may run his mouth and harass you but if you hit him you look like a jackass. The cowards that are on the street burning flags and killing people would run and hide among innocents if Americas armed forces moved in, then were back in the same type of situation as Afganistan or Iraq. You cant tell who is friend and who is foe and every move you make is a bad one.

 

The choices are either move toward an isolationist approach which is a bad move for economic reasons and is in alot of ways irresponsible or stand firm, take our lumps and try to help those that need it(remember these protesters/terrorists are a very vocal and widely viewed minority). Me personally, remove our people and money from the countries that allow these type of acts to take place and make the countries responsible for their people.

 

The simple fact is the United States is not the world power it once was; we are hurting too much at home and dont have the $ or the will to be that force anymore

[bucfan64 309]

Democracy is what led to this problem..........this is MOB RULE !

[wave316 64]

Its not as simple as America producing a show of strength. Its kind of like a grown man fighting a teenage boy, he may run his mouth and harass you but if you hit him you look like a jackass. The cowards that are on the street burning flags and killing people would run and hide among innocents if Americas armed forces moved in, then were back in the same type of situation as Afganistan or Iraq. You cant tell who is friend and who is foe and every move you make is a bad one.

 

The choices are either move toward an isolationist approach which is a bad move for economic reasons and is in alot of ways irresponsible or stand firm, take our lumps and try to help those that need it(remember these protesters/terrorists are a very vocal and widely viewed minority). Me personally, remove our people and money from the countries that allow these type of acts to take place and make the countries responsible for their people.

 

The simple fact is the United States is not the world power it once was; we are hurting too much at home and dont have the $ or the will to be that force anymore

 

My opnion on the Middle Eastern countries is this; Democracy is something a group of people has to come to, they cant be forced, helped or encouraged. Until they can come to Democracy it has to be tyranny that rules. Until the group decides to think logically and accept ideas/views that they dont necessarily agree with and put their issues/differences aside then they cannot be helped. We need to get out of the Middle East asap. The Arab Spring was their chance to make something of their selves, to show that they could move out from under tyranny and they chose to let their own countries destroy themselves. I do believe that we need to continue our support of Israel, since we created that whole mess in the first place.

 

Excuse me ....but your quote about we need to continue our support of Isreal since we created that whole mess in the first place is somewhat offensive to me...God formed the nation of Israel ,God gave Israel their land , God brought Israel back to their land ...Israel is not a mess .. The haters of Israel are the mess.The people who touch Israel touches the apple of God's eye ...be careful about stating America as the sustainer and god of Israel...they have a history that supersedes America's thousands of yrs.

[thundercloud 179]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RagKWM8ldk

 

Some liberal idot film makers in CA and You tube.

 

 

Computers, its a different world.

 

Let's buy the film makers a ticket to the Middle East and let them explain theirself.

[mavsgrad 28]

Excuse me ....but your quote about we need to continue our support of Isreal since we created that whole mess in the first place is somewhat offensive to me...God formed the nation of Israel ,God gave Israel their land , God brought Israel back to their land ...Israel is not a mess .. The haters of Israel are the mess.The people who touch Israel touches the apple of God's eye ...be careful about stating America as the sustainer and god of Israel...they have a history that supersedes America's thousands of yrs.

 

Amen brother!! It is outrageous that the Arab nations in the Middle East will not leave Israel alone and allow them to have a small sliver of land to live in peace on. Iran's president has said on several occasions that he does not believe in the Holocaust and that his goal is to drive Israel into the sea. The Arab nations hate us because we support Israel which we should. They are still God's chosen people and they deserve to have a homeland after all they suffered through during WW2. The people in those Muslim nations can't be reasoned with. We would be wise to support Israel and become energy independent so we didn't have to worry about what the Muslim nations think about us or might do that would raise oil prices.

[redtiger 1,742]

Excuse me ....but your quote about we need to continue our support of Isreal since we created that whole mess in the first place is somewhat offensive to me...God formed the nation of Israel ,God gave Israel their land , God brought Israel back to their land ...Israel is not a mess .. The haters of Israel are the mess.The people who touch Israel touches the apple of God's eye ...be careful about stating America as the sustainer and god of Israel...they have a history that supersedes America's thousands of yrs.

 

sorry if I offended you but I meant what I said

 

I didnt mean that Israel is a mess, my bad, but that the situation is a mess. and when I say Israel I am speaking about the modern country not the religious/historic state

 

I believe Harry Truman created the modern country of Israel in 1948; before then, no formal country of Israel. Without a doubt he sympathized with the Jewish people in their plight for a homeland(he felt terrible about what happened to them at the hands of the Nazis and felt that the US didnt do enough to help them before we entered WW2) and rightfully so. But none the less, American took part of one country and gave it to another group of people who had no legal right to it, setting religion aside thats a bad move. I believe that it was the right thing to do and I believe he knew that the US would be paying/fighting for that decision for the rest of time and honestly im ok with that

 

How would you feel if I came over to your house and said that I was taking your property and your house because my great great great grandpaw owned the land and I felt that it was mine, that god had given it to me? Thats exactly how the Muslims see it/feel about it.

 

Im not gonna get into an arguement with you about how God works and if I try to explain why I think im right and why I think youre wrong I will probably end up insulting you and thats not what I want. Im just gonna say that God works through people and leave it at that.

 

I will agree that the Muslim countries need to leave Israel alone and that we should become more energy independent. also, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad(Irans President) is an idiot and fool of the most dangerous kind

Edited September 17, 2012 by redtiger

[wave316 64]

sorry if I offended you but I meant what I said

 

I didnt mean that Israel is a mess, my bad, but that the situation is a mess. and when I say Israel I am speaking about the modern country not the religious/historic state

 

I believe Harry Truman created the modern country of Israel in 1948; before then, no formal country of Israel. Without a doubt he sympathized with the Jewish people in their plight for a homeland(he felt terrible about what happened to them at the hands of the Nazis and felt that the US didnt do enough to help them before we entered WW2) and rightfully so. But none the less, American took part of one country and gave it to another group of people who had no legal right to it, setting religion aside thats a bad move. I believe that it was the right thing to do and I believe he knew that the US would be paying/fighting for that decision for the rest of time and honestly im ok with that

 

How would you feel if I came over to your house and said that I was taking your property and your house because my great great great grandpaw owned the land and I felt that it was mine, that god had given it to me? Thats exactly how the Muslims see it/feel about it.

 

Im not gonna get into an arguement with you about how God works and if I try to explain why I think im right and why I think youre wrong I will probably end up insulting you and thats not what I want. Im just gonna say that God works through people and leave it at that.

 

I will agree that the Muslim countries need to leave Israel alone. also, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad(Irans President) is an idiot of the most dangerous kind

 

America did not create Israel...God created the nation of Israel before America was ever a thought... Actually as far as land that belongs to Israel she was given by God much more than she actually occupies...God told Israel if they disobeyed and fell into Idolatry He would scatter them ..and then later He would regather them ..this happened in Ezekiel 37.. The US was a hand in the regathering of Israel back to her homeland but not the creator of Israel.. As far as you insulting me ... I would be more concerned about insulting God ...He formed Isreal...delivered them from Egypt.. Gave them the Torah ..used a Jewish girl named Mary to bear a Saviour named Jesus Christ ..allowed that child to grow in stature and wisdom ,favor with God and favor with man ...heal sick people, set captives free...teach great wisdom , be crucified and die on a Cross ...then resurrected from the dead by the power of God ...commissioned Jewish Apostles to preach the Good News ..the Gospel of forgiveness of sins thru His Blood... and will one day return back to this earth and set up His kingdom in Jerusalam... God bless you Redtiger.. You have not offended me... The Lord Jesus Christ saved a wretch like me.. Which indeed is a miracle!

[redtiger 1,742]

youre saying God regathered Israel through the actions of the US, I completly agree with that. Im stating it differently but I agree. We are simply looking at it from different angles.

 

I believe Truman created Israel and that he felt that it was the right and christian thing to do. I believe God worked through Truman and the US(I believe that he still is). From a religious perspective I believe we are tied to Gods chosen people and their homeland, and thats exactly where we should be. From a political perspective I believe we made a mess and are stuck with it(same as with Iraq).

Edited September 17, 2012 by redtiger

[bucfan64 309]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RagKWM8ldk

 

Some liberal idot film makers in CA and You tube.

 

 

Computers, its a different world.

 

Let's buy the film makers a ticket to the Middle East and let them explain theirself.

 

NO offense thudercloud, but this is not the real reason behind the recent events in the Middle East. This is what the MSM is referencing as the "cause" for the attacks. These attacks were coordinated long before, as a matter of a fact the film had been out for quite some time without any type of reaction from these radicals.

 

Interesting enough, these events took place on 9/11, coincidence? I think not!

[redtiger 1,742]

A little perspective

 

http://news.yahoo.com/multiple-personalities-muslim-rage-194454551.html

 

An Indonesian Muslim scholar, Komaruddin Hidayat, said Muslims have the duty to oppose to anything they deem offensive to their faith, but must "avoid using violence in expressing their objections." At the other end of the Muslim world in Nigeria, a top Islamic leader, Sheik Sani Yahaya Jingir, said violence never brings "any benefit to Islam."

 

"Yes, we understand the First Amendment and all of this stuff," wrote Khalid Amayreh, a prominent Islamist commentator and blogger in Hebron on the West Bank. "But you must also understand that the Prophet (for us) is a million times more sacred than the American Constitution."

 

He adds: "As Americans have their own idiots and fanatics, we, too, have our idiots and fanatics. And as Americans are utterly unable — probably unwilling as well — to stop their idiots, we, too, are less able to rein in ours."

 

 

Lets try to keep an open mind and remember that the most radical are often the most heard

Edited September 17, 2012 by redtiger

[sandman 13]

A little perspective

 

http://news.yahoo.com/multiple-personalities-muslim-rage-194454551.html

 

An Indonesian Muslim scholar, Komaruddin Hidayat, said Muslims have the duty to oppose to anything they deem offensive to their faith, but must "avoid using violence in expressing their objections." At the other end of the Muslim world in Nigeria, a top Islamic leader, Sheik Sani Yahaya Jingir, said violence never brings "any benefit to Islam."

 

"Yes, we understand the First Amendment and all of this stuff," wrote Khalid Amayreh, a prominent Islamist commentator and blogger in Hebron on the West Bank. "But you must also understand that the Prophet (for us) is a million times more sacred than the American Constitution."

 

He adds: "As Americans have their own idiots and fanatics, we, too, have our idiots and fanatics. And as Americans are utterly unable — probably unwilling as well — to stop their idiots, we, too, are less able to rein in ours."

 

 

Lets try to keep an open mind and remember that the most radical are often the most heard

 

 

 

 

 

 

Benghazi Friday Sermon Preacher, in Wake of Killing of US Ambassador, Calls to "Detonate Our Wrath upon Them" and "Stab Them in Their Main Artery"

 

 

 

 

http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/3578.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Here's some prespective from Benghazi where two days prior, four Americans were killed.

[bucfan64 309]

Anyone who thinks that all of this mess was spontaneous and over a youtube video has been deceived.

 

This is much bigger, in my opinion this is an orchestrated attack that intends to further weaken our First Amendment Rights.

 

Interesting information below suggesting that the attacks were anything but spontaneous.

 

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2012/09/18/Libyan-President-Attack-Was-Premeditated-Al-Qaeda-Involved-US-Warned-Beforehand

[bucfan64 309]

Benghazi Friday Sermon Preacher, in Wake of Killing of US Ambassador, Calls to "Detonate Our Wrath upon Them" and "Stab Them in Their Main Artery"

 

 

 

 

http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/3578.htm

 

 

 

 

 

Here's some prespective from Benghazi where two days prior, four Americans were killed.

 

+1 nice find......

[mavsgrad 28]

I'm afraid too many people are going to buy into the media and government propoganda about this just being a spontanious mob rather than an organized effort to test the resolve and strength of this country. Everyday more information is coming out which show their were warning signs and that the attacks in Egypt and Lybia were organized. I'm afraid that too few people are going to see how this is a blatant example of how weak or president's foreign policies are and they'll re-elect him anyway. Then we really will be hurting but it will be too late for people to wake up then.

[redtiger 1,742]

The riots and demonstrations are getting all the press when they arent the real issue. The actual attacks were planned, no doubt.

[redtiger 1,742]

The riots and demonstrations are getting all the press when they arent the real issue. The actual attacks were planned, no doubt.

 

 

The "sermon" shows how the "Muslims" who support these attacks arent really representing Islam.

 

"The Prophet Muhammad said: 'Wage Jihad against the polytheists' "

 

Jihad - it does not mean holy war(as it is often represented) it means struggle. Struggle within ones self and struggle to show your faith to those who arent Muslim. Jihad is never mentioned in the Quran in relation to fighting or war.

 

polytheism - The worship of, or belief in, more than one god.

 

The guy is bending the words of his own holy book to suit his own needs. Definately not a sound example of the followers of Islam. The Quran acepts all followers of the book, anyone who believes in God(Jews, Christians and Muslims). Islam does speak against infidels, someone who does not believe in God. These extremists bend their holy words to suit their needs and will have to answer for it. Just dont lump them all together and try not to make generalizations about the entire faith based on the actions of a few.

[mavsgrad 28]

 

The guy is bending the words of his own holy book to suit his own needs. Definately not a sound example of the followers of Islam. The Quran acepts all followers of the book, anyone who believes in God(Jews, Christians and Muslims). Islam does speak against infidels, someone who does not believe in God. These extremists bend their holy words to suit their needs and will have to answer for it. Just dont lump them all together and try not to make generalizations about the entire faith based on the actions of a few.

 

It's awful funny for a religion that is supposed to be so peaceful that followers of Islam are consistently responsible for acts of terror from the 1993 WTC bombing, to the bombing of the U.S. Coal, 9-11, The fort hood shooting, and now riots in over 20 countries where U.S. citizens and embassy's are being attacked. I believe where there is smoke there is fire meaning that violence against non-muslims is within the context of the Islamic religion. All muslims are not terrorists but that doesn't mean that their religion doesn't promote violence. I'm curious if you have any proof to back up your claim that Islam is accepting of other religions? Specifically do you have any passage from their holy book that states that?

[redtiger 1,742]

I seriously considered not doing this because like anything this is open to interpretation, each person is going to read this and take different things from it. And furthermore translating the Quran to english is the same as translating the original Bible to english in that some things are translated differently, some things are gained and some things are lost.

 

"He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein." Quran 42:13

 

I read that and it says that the religion of Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus is the same as Islam, THE RELIGION. They are all connected and not seperate. Similar to how Christians view Judaism(an earlier version of the same religion)

 

"The People of the Book know him (Muhammad) just as well as they know their own children, but those who have lost their souls will not believe." Quran 6:20

 

knowing the Bible or the Torah is knowing the Quran and Islam, the teachings are the same. They just go about things in different ways

 

"VERILY, those who have attained to faith, as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians – all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds – shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve" Quran 2:62

 

That one pretty much explains itself

 

"Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." Quran 109:1-6

 

Do not try to force your religion on others and do not allow them to force their religion on you. To each his own

 

“And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors” (2:190).

 

defend yourselves but dont attack others. Islam, as a religion, does not condone violence and certainly does not condone terrorist acts against non agressors

Edited September 20, 2012 by redtiger

[mavsgrad 28]

I really want to compliment you on having a basis for your position. I have a lot of respect for people who know why they believe what they believe. I think a lot of people today in America have little basis for their convictions. Below are some passages from the Quran that are part of the basis for my belief about Islam.

 

Sura 5:51: “O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”

 

Surah 47:4 When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens.

 

 

Sura3 3:64: “Verily Allah has cursed the Unbelievers (whom he defined as Christians in the 5th surah “Believers, take not Jews and Christians for your friends.) and has prepared for them a Blazing Fire to dwell in forever. No protector will they find, nor savior. That Day their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire. They will say: ‘Woe to us! We should have obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!’ ‘Our Lord! Give them double torment and curse them with a very great Curse!’”

 

Speaking of unbelievers: Sura 4:89 “seize them and slay them wherever you find them: and in any case take no friends or helpers from their ranks.”

 

I do agree with you that it is very hard to get a clear understanding of the core of a religion based on individual passages. Heaven knows that people have taken specific verses from the Bible and used them out of context so I know I have to be careful in my analysis because I haven't read the full content of the Quran. However, there seems to be plenty of verses that promote violence for followers of Islam to use to justify their actions.

 

I remember reading one time that when Mohammed started to promote his new religion that he began with the demeanor of a lamb (humble and peaceful) because he had very few followers. His demeanor evolved into that of a fox over time (still not strong enough force his religion upon people so he sought to harras them). Lastly he took on the form of a lion (bold and violent) as his number of followers grew. I kind of see that still going on today. Muslims who live near me are never violent but their aren't many muslim families in my area. However, in Deerborn MI where there is a large Muslim population, Muslims are very forceful and outspoken.

Setting asside the history of Islam and the interpretation of the Quran (which we both could debate) let me mention what I see going on today. My understanding is that even today if you live in a Muslim controlled country and are not a follower of Islam then you have to pay a tax (Jizyah) in order to be protected against violence as you show your submissiveness to Islamic rule.

The violence in these Muslim ran countries aren't even limited to unbelievers. Syria has been a violent mess for months now. You hear of frequent abuse of women in Muslim countries. It is just my opinion but the evidence seems to indicate to me that these people do not have the same respect for life that we do (we being Christian influenced nations such as the U.S. and many European nations). I understand and respect the fact that everyone has a right to believe whatever they want to but when someone's religious beliefs begin to threaten the lives of others then something has to be done. I just think we are kidding ourselves to think it is a very small minority of Muslims who want to harm us given the opportunity. I believe we should take a much more cautious and gaurded approach with these nations. Thanks for the friendly discussion. I really don't want to be right on this subject. I would prefer for everyone to respect their fellow man's right to live and have their own religious beliefs.

[redtiger 1,742]

I think the Quran is much like the Bible in that it contradicts itself and can be interpreted in many ways. The Quran(in my experience) is very vague in alot of areas and that leaves alot of room for things to be misinterpreted. Alot of what the message means comes from the mindset of the person reading it(I know you know that).

 

I am very suspicious of ANY country with an official state religion(alot of why I dont want to see religion officially inserted into our government), I cant see how any good can come of it. I think alot of the Islamic countries see things as "us vs them" and I dont want America to take that same stance, because eventually it will lead to downfall. Countries that allow their citizens to follow only one train of thought cannot survive and prosper imo.

 

Non-Muslims living in many Muslim countries do pay the Jizya(tax to guarantee their right to protection and services from the state as well as the right to practice their religion) but Muslims males living in the state often have to pay Zakat(basically alms giving, 1 of the 5 pillars of Islam). I think neither are right and are imo more of a way to ensure tax revenue but of course that can be debated.

 

I think alot of Muslims overseas are hostile toward the U.S. but I think a small number truly want to do harm to us.