A Casual Observation

[sandman 13]

In my free time I have been seeking the underlying causation of a problem that haunts region IV (both divisions). Through the glut of information that exists on this website, (good job G-Man), I think that I found what I was looking for.

 

First, the problem. Not enough teams in divisions III and IV, have caused a series of embarassing and unfortunate playoff situations. Regularly 5-5 and even 4-6 teams have been invited, or rather forced, to participate in the Regional playoffs. Lets be frank Graham, Magna Vista and Virginia High don't need to be involved in this years playoffs. Grundy and one other team would have sufficed to determine the divisional champion.

 

The solution is simple Gate City, Powell Valley, Giles, George Wythe, Grason County, Glenvar, Radford, Fort Chiswell, all have sufficient student levels to participate in division III allowing upward mobility of division III schools into division IV.

 

It is my opinion that listed and other institutions are "ducking" participation in the correct classification to artifically inflate their win totals and championship banners.

 

Now that I've tagged some of you as cowards, convince me otherwise.

[Lance 228]

I agree mostly...only problem is, when you compare our region to the others, the population and closing of schools plays in to it and there are simply not enough schools close enough to each other to keep everyone happy with travel...just the way it is, no matter how you group them someone is going to complain.

 

Until someone that can make decisions takes control and grows a spine and tells these schools what to do...it wont happen...and under the current system that couldn't happen anyway because the schools make these decisions anyway...kinda like having the animals run the zoo...so you get what we have here now...4-6 teams winning weak districts and getting in the playoffs while 9-1 teams sit home.

 

A simple solution is to move a few single A teams up to AA and disolve the Highlands to the hogo and redistrict marion and lebanon back in to the SWD...send va high to the hogo with Lee and abingdon...or force va high to go to the LPD if they can't compete at AA anymore.

 

That alone changes a lot...second...stop awarding the district winners auto bids and go strictly off of points.

 

 

Another point...everyone wants people to play hard schedules...by doing this in the current system you will get good teams that have worse records than some that have good records...thus a 7-3 team may be better than a 9-1 team...they just played up and played a harder schedule...in the long run you are rewarded with points for playing teams that win a lot of games...case in point i think Grundy ended up getting 15+ points or so for losing to Richlands who was 9-1.

 

Anyway...point is you can't have it both ways and keep everyone happy.

 

The real point of the way it's set up now is $$$$$

 

The VHSL wants more playoff games because they get the gate money from these games...not the schools involved...or at least that is my understanding of the situation. So factor that in also.

 

You could say, put all the district winner in only...then you still have 9-1 teams at home...this year if you did that Grundy would be at home while Va High was getting blown out by Richlands tonight...so...thats not the answer either if you want the best teams in. Sure you can say win your district blah blah blah, but it's not that simple.

[GC_Quincy 582]

As for Gate City, ducking competition is a joke. You can check the stats from the past 40 years and see we've been very successful in both A and AA. Maybe you need to study the reasons why the schools dropped down instead of making rediculous accusations.

[BigBlue02 11]

Why not just move Lebanon up and put them in the SWD,get rid of Carroll County once and for all. Move Gate City to the Highlands yet again,get rid of Lee if at all possible put Powell Valley in the highlands as well. This would make for some interesting games.

[Lance 228]

[ QUOTE ]

As for Gate City, ducking competition is a joke. You can check the stats from the past 40 years and see we've been very successful in both A and AA. Maybe you need to study the reasons why the schools dropped down instead of making rediculous accusations.

 

[/ QUOTE ]

 

I'm not saying GC is "ducking" anyone...that was not the intent of the post...i was just saying Grundy is not "ducking" you guys....which they are not.

[sandman 13]

I'm looking for an explination for why teams like Gate City moved down to A. They seem to be more than able to compete in division III football. I would like you to give an reason. We're not discussing the "last forty years", I'm asking about now.

[BEARCAT 10]

Lance, Va High was tied 21 all with Richlands in the 4th. Can Grundy say that? I'm sure you've got several excuses ready to fire for why we played Richlands closer than you, just like you are firing your excuses for sitting at home all over the board.

 

You are finding creative ways of bashing us in every thread and complaining when we say anything about our win.

 

It is sort of ironic how you repeatedly refer to how horrible we are like in this post, yet we handed Grundy a playoff loss. Hmmmm...what does that say about YOUR team?

[sandman 13]

Get back on topic.

[GC_Quincy 582]

Sorry Lance I was responding to Sandman. Gate City dropped down for the same reason other schools dropped. The almighty dollar. We can go to any LPD school in an hour or less. In Division 3, we had to travel sometimes for 4 hours to play a regional game. I honestly don't see how we're saving money though. I miss the larger crowds we're accustomed to.

[Lance 228]

It's crazy in GC...I love it...I wish we had fans like that at our games...the atmosphere for that Richlands vs. GC game in week 1 was amazing...I wish I could have gone to the PV game this year.

 

We have a good core group of fans, but outside of that it's just a social outing at the games...half of them don't even know a game is going on. The half that do make a lot of noise though and our "road warriors" are an awesome group of fans - although few in numbers.

[wavefan64 10]

I thought since it was the off-season, I would post a little more lol.

 

I have been thinking about a playoff system that would work, and after reading the book "Friday Night Lights" and talking to jmarcum for a good 3 hours on the subject. This thought arose.

 

Why not take VA. and make it a 5 class system. Your D6 schools would be 5A, and you can throw your bigger D5 schools in there call it 5A ball. Take your small D5 and big D4(Salem, Carroll County, Pulaski etc.) and call it 4A ball. Then you take your smaller D4 and bigger D3 (Richlands, Christiansburg, Gretna, Bedford) and call it 3A. Then you have the small D3 (Grundy, Graham, Tazewell) and your big D2 schools (Gate City, Honaker, Powell Valley) and call that 2A ball and all your other schools (Haysi, Hurley, Twin Valley) would be 1A.

 

Split the state up into 4 regions, in 2A ball for instance you could make some kind of boundary that west of bluefield I-81 is region 4 west of Roanoke is region 3, kind of similar to how it is now. But look at it this way. In region 4, you wouldn't have 4-6 VA. High and 5-5 Graham in there for that matter. You wouldn't have 6-4 Tazewell either. If you go by this system, It would be 9-1 Grundy, 9-1 Powell Valley, 9-1 Gate City, and 8-2 Honaker in there. You could even get fancy about it and take the boundary to west of the blue ridge and make it top 6 teams and have a 3 reigion 18 team playoffs. Would it work better?

 

District play would also be a big thing. Throw Grundy, Honaker, Graham, Tazewell, and Clintwood in a district. Call it the Coalfields, Southwest, whatever you want district. All teams that fit this classification into that district. Take Giles, Floyd, all those teams that way throw them in the New River District. Gate City and all others in the Lonsome Pine. Take the top 2 in each district for the 6 team system, you get the point. In 3A ball, Abigndon, Bristol, Marion, Richlands, all those schools, throw them in together in a district, call it the Southwest, Western district, something like that. The 3A and larger classes would probably have to be split into Eastern and Western Reigions. Eliminate all interdivisional districts, and throw out the power point system. You win a weak district, you get machined. Interdivisional play is greatly encouraged. Imagine what kind of playoffs we would have then! Would it work? Maybe. Will it ever be adopted? No.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

That was wonderfully stated, wavefan64.

In theory, I agree more to the 5A system with Regions I-IV than I do with the 6-team playoff system. Other states (i.e. Tennessee, Ohio, North Carolina, etc.) have adopted a similar system and have had it work quite well.

In my revision, however, one would have to totally demolish the old standings for A, AA, and AAA schools (i.e. 1700+ kids for a AAA Division 6 school, etc.). The breakdown for such a system under waveman64's format would be something like:

0-225 in grades 9-12: A

225-450 in grades 9-12: AA

450-800 in grades 9-12: AAA

800-1200 in grades 9-12: AAAA

1200+ in grades 9-12: AAAAA

In this system, you wouldn't have a Harrisonburg dropping to Division 3 before the playoffs just for the sake of easing a bid at the state championship. Am I bitter? No: Harrisonburg had the better team that day. Was it right? That's questionable, and part of the reason I suggest this sort of revision, to make the boundaries more well-defined, which is the reason this got started in the first place.

You wouldn't have a Grayson County in A-ball with 606 students, nor a Graham in AA-ball with 467. It would refuel the old flames...imagine a district with Tazewell, Graham, Grundy, Lebanon, Marion; that's somewhat reminiscent of the ol' days. In another district, you'd have Lee High, Gate City, Powell Valley, Grayson County, and Virginia High.

This is my explanation, it's open to interpretation, but it is just my addition to the system mentioned before.

[BEARCAT 10]

There are a lot of good ideas there, but an 18 team playoff just wouldn't work. There is no way i can come up with that you don't end up giving teams byes during the playoffs. That's no good. How would that work?

 

From Independence to Ben Hur........get me off that stinkin' bus

[sandman 13]

It dosen't matter what system you implement if the schools won't participate in the correct classification. That is why Division 2 is so strong in this area. All the Division 3 teams are playing there.

[wavefan64 10]

That could be solved also Sandman. Have a strict cutoff number for enrollment. Here are some ideas.

 

1A: 200 and under.

2A: 200-600

3A: 600-900

4A: 900-1200

5A: 1200+

 

They have schools do enrollment checks each year. If the enrollment is false i.e. we will use Graham for an example. Say Graham is playing 5A ball, and they want to drop to 4A. They have an actual enrollment of 1300 kids. They say the enrollment is 1100. A VHSL official does a check. Counts the enrolled students, and the enrollment is 1300. Graham is penalized with no playoffs in any sports. It's that simple. Have a strict boundary, and if you commit and infraction, no playoffs for that year.

 

As for the regions, I rethought that also. Just have 4 reigions in 2A ball, where most schools would be playing. Have the Northern region, the Eastern reigon, the Central Region, and the Western Region. 4 districts in each, top team in each district makes it to the regional playoffs. It would make the playoffs much more interesting, and the teams could play a cupcake schedule, but they would once again, get machined in the playoffs.

 

In A ball, have the same regional setup. In the upper divisions, have only 4 districts. We will even call them Conferences. You throw Bristol, Abingdon, Marion, Richlands, and Carroll County in a district. They might have to travel the same amount as they do now. They might have to play Pulaski, Christiansburg, Maybe Bedford or somebody in the Playoffs, It isn't THAT bad of a trip from Bristol to Lynchburg, Richlands to Gretna, Caroll to Pulaski. Where the teams would really be hurting is out East. They could meet at a neutral site though, in a central location.

[hoard 18]

Get out a map of Virginia and the enrollment figures for all schools in the state and reclassification isn't so easy. If it works out OK in Southwest Virginia it doesn't necessarily mean it will in the rest of the state.

 

For instance, someone posted that the Single A cutoff be 200 students. According to the VHSL divisional breakdowns for 2004, there are only 14 football-playing schools in the state with an enrollment of 200 or less, and all but three are west of Roanoke.

 

The problem is that unless you can get the majority of schools to support a reclassification plan, it isn't going to pass. Even with a 4-class system you end up with numerous instances where certain schools end up geographically isolated in their own classification, resulting in increased travel, more expenses and missed class time. Keep in mind, the classification covers all sports, not just football which is played on the weekend.

[wavefan64 10]

Very, Very true Hoard. It would be nice to have a setup like that, but, could you make the cutoff at 350 students? Some plan has got to work better than we have right now. Maybe this could be a football only setup? A guy can dream cant he?

[Lance 228]

I think the enrollment figures and the classifications can have a wide range...graham and Grundy have proved that smaller schools can compete with larger schools year in and year out...some of these schools need to worry more about getting better coaches and programs and less about excuses as to why they can't compete with larger schools.

 

You could do away with the A system all togehter and just go to region and divisions....if there was a national system in place for enrollment figures converting over to a standard "A" system it would be different...as it is a AA team in VA might be AAA in KY or whatever.

 

Just separate the state into the 4 regions and set division levels and districts out of that...combine some of the districts until you get a balanced division. If you throw the "A" stuff out it allows for some of the old rivalry's to come back without punishing schools in playoff points as well.

[hoard 18]

I'm not opposed to the combination district (A/AA, AA/AAA) concept as long as the playoff system is tweaked enough so that the larger schools in the district aren't penalized too much for having play teams in a lower classification. I think combo districts would work well in Southwest Virginia because the AA schools aren't that much larger than the A schools, which is also a big reason why schools such as Graham and Grundy compete well in AA despite A numbers. From a statewide perspective, they are the exception and not the rule.

 

The combo district might be a necessity if the VHSL does to go a four-class system. Longtime district rivals like Tazewell, Graham, Grundy and Richlands would fall into different classifcations in a 4-class system but the combination district might allow them to still play together while keeping them from having to travel excessively for district games.

[GMan 3,569]

Combination Districts = WORST IDEA EVER...PERIOD!!!

[sandman 13]

G-Man, It's about time you got your a$$ and weighed in on this thing.

 

It seems to me that the schools that "play down" use the justification that they want to play geographic rivals. That's all well and good except that it leaves Districts and Regions (IV) thread bare. If everyone is going to play where ever they want, we only need one state champion.

 

If you dont have true classifications, you don't need class champions.

[hoard 18]

Why do you think combo districts are the worst idea ever?

 

What happens if the VHSL goes to a four-class system and you end up with, say, one or two Group A-sized schools geographically isolated from everyone else of their size? Do you force them to play in AA (if that's even a possibility for them) or do you have a two-team district? Do you force them to travel two hours for all their district games?

 

What's worse, the combo district, or any of the scenarios listed above? I agree that they're not ideal, but in some cases they might be necessary.