Fatal stabbing at VT...

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

they need to start permitting students to concealed carry on campuses, if people haven't figured out that the universities and schools can't protect you by now it defies logic, and people have a right to not be at the mercy of others and to be able to defend themselves.

...QUOTE]

 

How would that have made any difference here?

If SHE had a gun, would it have stopped him?

If someone nearby might have a gun, would it have stopped him?

 

Sorry, I just don't see it making a diff. any way.

 

it depends on how the attack actually happened, in the case of the greyhound stabbing last summer, likely it wouldn't matter if the guy had been armed, he was sitting late at night listening to music likely with his eyes closed when the guy just started stabbing him very brutally, knife woulds do much more damage than people think, especially big knife wounds to the chest, lungs, heart, at that point in a matter of seconds he's already been stabbed fatally a few times.

If a crazed person starts stabbing very quickly and violently and unexpectedly, then there isn't much a victim could do. But I doubt many stabbings actually happen like that, some do, this might have been the case at tech, I don't know the story, but there's many types of fatal killings that escalate from verbal confrontations, or after a brief physical struggle.

 

Could a person close by with a gun stop such an incident, it depends on the situation and how it happened as mentioned. Certainly possible if it was a situation that increased with violence, or a situation where they struggled 1st. If it was a very fast brutal stabbing then likely by the time people realized what was happening the victim would have already had fatal wounds, if it was a severe stab and the gal was defenseless for a few seconds while the attacker backed off, it's possible the attacker could have been stopped from finishing her off and she might have survived.

For certain it could have prevented him from stabbing someone else, which is often the bigger thing to consider. What if he had intended to kill more people, would this be a bigger nation wide incident? What would have prevented that?

 

It's hard to believe that people think that having a means to defend yourself or someone else isn't a considerably better option than just being completely unarmed and defenseless if that's what you are actually suggesting.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

So if you see this incident start to happen, you are gonna run or sit and watch? Even if it were afterwards, you could help apprehend him. Geez, it would be different if he had a gun or something. The sad thing is that we have too many people in this world like this or the other who shot the people in April. Also it's sad to see that you would not assist!

 

Tell you what, go talk to a police officer with experience and question him what he thinks about apprehending a violent person with a knife. Many police officers will tell you that there's as much caution if not more taken when confronting someone with a knife as there is someone with a gun, especially someone proven they're willing to use it. A knife will penetrate their armor to.

That said I didn't write that I wouldn't do anything, I tend to be armed wherever I go, and if I were on a college campus attending school I guess I'd just be carrying illegally, and there's many people who do carry who will tell you that they'd rather face the law for that than be a victim because they couldn't defend themselves. As the saying goes, it's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6.

Does it mean you'll win every time or in such a situation, absolutely not, but the odds are much better for you and for anyone who happens to be around you.

 

As for acting, it's easy to say I'd do this or I'd do that, but in situations such as this, people with experiences will tell you they weren't themselves, or that they didn't actually believe what they were seeing, they were frozen, time stood still, ect., ect., ect., i.e. they don't know what they'd do because they likely wouldn't be thinking like themselves in such a situation and there's many other factors that cause the mind to react a certain way, and some of them are natural survival instincts that are deep in your self.

It's not uncommon for soldiers to have to force themselves to go forward or react and not freeze up or not curl up in the fetal position at the 1st time in intense combat. That's the big reason the military does there best to make training as realistic as possible and a big reason they try and make training stressful and difficult.

There's very in depth books of such things, "on combat", a manual for surviving combat for military and police professionals, another by that author simply "on killing", which has in depths studies on such things as not holding your breath in times of intense stress and such. It's simply well beyond what the common person realizes.

I can rationalize that in a situation such as the shootings there 2 years ago many people wouldn't have been able to tell themselves what their names were while that was going on, or who they were.

Facing death is a very intense thing many people can't really comprehend till they experience it.

You could carry a gun for that matter and fail to use it or be able to use it good enough, you could have 0 training and no weapon and react and somehow become a hero, you just never know.

As for myself I certainly haven't been in a situation such as the shootings there 2 years ago, being defenseless like so, and I'm certain it would be a very traumatizing experience, but I have been to iraq with the infantry, and have been through some of the more difficult training the army has, so I tend to believe I could react in some of the most stressful situations and do it well enough that carrying a gun or a good edged weapon would be effective for me.

I appreciate you calling me out and telling me what a chickenshi! I am.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

 

In a case like this I don't think anyone carrying a gun would have made a difference. It may have even made the situation worse. Witnesses said that there was no argument or confrontation leading up to the murder, he simply took the knife out and killed the girl. No time for anyone to react or to stop him. If someone had a gun, there very likely would have been gun shots and more wounded and/or dead on campus. However, I can see how carrying a gun may help in an inccident like the one in April 2007.

 

It might not have I agree, but as mentioned in my other post the key is depending on how the situation happened it's possible, and more than that the big thing is preventing more people from being injured or killed.

You can't simply look at 1 situation and apply that to all scenarios, most are different in some way. But someone can be as prepared as possible or they can leave it up to prayer and being at the mercy of evil. I prefer the former option.

[deuceswild 15]

These gun arguments really crack me up. You think if people were allowed to carry concealed weapons around with them, this guy would have attacked her with a kitchen knife??

 

NO! He would've had a gun like the rest of us.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

These gun arguments really crack me up. You think if people were allowed to carry concealed weapons around with them, this guy would have attacked her with a kitchen knife??

 

NO! He would've had a gun like the rest of us.

 

with all due respect, this type of argument is nothing short of ridiculous, the guy was a "murderer", obviously with a lot of emotional instability, with absolutely 0 regard for life or "law",, if the guy had wanted to use a gun in this very case, whether or not guns were legal or not on the campus would not have made the slightest difference to this individual. Do you honestly intend to tell me that the reason this murderer, this "decapitator" didn't use a gun is because "they weren't allowed on campus'. That he murdered this woman in a way that was "more compliant" with the rules and regulations on campus?

 

The only people gun laws really permit from arming and defending themselves in this particular case is the innocent students, and as such forces most of them to be defenseless.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

anyhow as I was going to post, this is really good reading for anyone who really desires to prepare themselves to "act" in such situations. I'd recommend either or each book, "on killing" which is more on the subject of simply killing and perhaps more oriented towards defense in society, or "on combat",

 

http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116

 

 

Table of Contents for On Combat:

 

Forward by Gavin de Becker (A Gift of Fear)

 

Section I The Physiology of Combat: The Anatomy of the Human Body in Battle

 

* Combat

* The Harsh Reality of Combat

* Sympathetic and Parasympathetic Nervous System

* Fear, Physiological Arousal and Performance

 

Section II Perceptual Distortions in Combat: An Altered State of Consciousness

 

* The Eyes and the Ears

* Autopilot

* A Grabbag of effects

* Memory Loss, Memory Distortions and the Role of Videotaping

* The Klinger Study

 

Section III The Call to Combat: Where Do We Get Such Men?

 

* Killing Machines

* Stress Inoculation and Fear

* Sucking Up Bullets and Continuing to Fight

* Making the Decision to Kill

* Modern Paladins Bearing the Shield

* The Evolution of Combat

* The Evolution of Combat and Domestic Violent Crimes

 

Section IV The Price of Combat: After the Smoke Clears

 

* Relief, Self-Blame and Other Emotions

* Stress, Uncertainty, and the "Four Fs"

* PTSD

* A Time to Heal

* Tactical Breathing and the Mechanics of the Debriefing

* What to Say to a Returning Veteran and What to Say to a Survivor

* Thou Shalt Not Kill?

* Survivor Guilt

[deuceswild 15]

with all due respect, this type of argument is nothing short of ridiculous, the guy was a "murderer", obviously with a lot of emotional instability, with absolutely 0 regard for life or "law",, if the guy had wanted to use a gun in this very case, whether or not guns were legal or not on the campus would not have made the slightest difference to this individual. Do you honestly intend to tell me that the reason this murderer, this "decapitator" didn't use a gun is because "they weren't allowed on campus'. That he murdered this woman in a way that was "more compliant" with the rules and regulations on campus?

 

The only people gun laws really permit from arming and defending themselves in this particular case is the innocent students, and as such forces most of them to be defenseless.

 

No sir. I'm saying I don't agree with gun arguments and used this case as a metaphor. I feel if you make guns more available to either obtain via permit or steal from others, then more senseless acts of rage and violence would likely occur. I don't feel like I would ever feel safe if more people had a gun. I don't know how I could. Real life is not a multi-player game of Call of Duty, you don't respawn.

 

Since when is decapitating more compliant with rules on campus??

 

Quite a few people are careful with their guns, are not likely to go ape and kill people, and are mindful of where they can keep it out of the hands of others.. I'm not saying no American should ever carry a gun. But on a college campus where thousands of different cultures, angry people, depressed people, etc collide, I don't feel like its the safest venue and warrants extreme gun control. And apparently some form of kitchen knife control (although extremely unlikely). That doesn't make students anymore defenseless as it does more safe. Its really hard for even a coffee shop full of gun toters to stop someone from surprise attacking another with a knife. Knives don't go bang and knives aren't illegal. Guns wouldn't have done a thing (except maybe cause more mass fear and confusion).

 

Please don't call my arguments ridiculous, they are only opposite of yours but equally educated.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

Guns currently are accessible to anyone, and of the people who acquire CCW permits, go through the background check and training, only 1% ever lose their permit. 90% of those are because of non violent crimes. These are the good guys. Guns will ALWAYS be available to people who want them, usually criminals. And people who kill, do not care about breaking the law to get guns. People like me and buzzsaw, we do things the right way. New York placed a ballistic database, where every new handgun sold was fired before and ballistics recorded. Of the people who bought there guns legally during the past 7 years, of all the searches of the ballistic databases only 2 were hits. No one was brought to trial, nothing was charged. 2 hits out of 7000 guns. I think that makes it obvious that people who buy thier guns legally do not commit crimes.

 

Lets just take a brief look at gun free zones, shall we?

 

In a mall incident in Westroads mall in Omaha, 9 people were killed, 4 injured, and the gunman killed himself. It was a gun free zone. No one could stop him. Tragedy ensued.

 

In a mall incident in Salt Lake City Mall, an armed off duty cop saved the lives of many because he defied (technically it was legal because of his badge) the mall's gun free zone. The gunman had already killed 5 before the cop returned fire first. After he was shot dead, the gunman was found to have multiple unregistered guns and a backpack stuffed full of ammo. He wasnt going to stop for awhile. It was Valentines day.

 

So you see, legal guns save lives.

 

Lets look at the shootings at VT. We all know the April tragedy. But do you all know that just up the road at VT 2 students stopped a gunman with an automatic weapon using their own legally owned firearm. That was in Grundy. That was Appalachian School of Law. That is close to home for all of us.

 

One of my best friends lives on Red Oak Ridge in Bluewell, WV, and we both know of a story, that was published in a magazine where a person just a few doors up from him stopped an intruder into his house with a gun with his own. He had a family to protect, and he did. That is even closer.

 

Or what about Columbine-gun free zone. NYC Pizza shop - gun free zone. Pearl HS - gun free zone. VT - gun free zone. Amish school in PA - gun free zone. Or one of the saddest stories, Luby's cafeteria's gun free zone.

 

Luby's cafeteria had a gun free policy, due to Texas law. So when Suzanne Hupp could not carry her legally owned handgun into the Cafe that day, a satanic gunman opened fire and slaughtered innocents, and she could not protect herself or others. She might have stopped it.

 

Gun free zones obviously do not exist from the above incidents. Good, law abiding, CCW legal toting citizen's gun free zones do exist. And that causes problems.

 

Look, I am not here to tell you guns dont kill people. Guns are used by psychotic, insane, hitler/stalin/terrorist loving people who want to cause as much pain as possible especially in these cases I listed above to kill innocent people. Millions of guns are fired every day and a bullet never hits flesh, unless its game (as in deer, rabbit). We only hear about the bad ones. There are 6-8 incidents at LEAST every month I read about where someone uses a legal weapon to stop a criminal. And I smile and thank God that a life or lives were saved.

 

Ill end with this, a quote from Ted Nugent. "To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead... Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot them"

 

The police will be the first to tell you they cant protect you, and that you need to protect yourself. Dont let someone take away all you have because of some psychotic streak. Dont let that happen in your presence. Protect what you hold near and dear to you, cause in the end besides God, thats all you have.

Edited January 25, 2009 by BEAVERTAIL

[Lance 228]

I just bought another gun....45 ACP...love it so far...the way things are today you have to protect your family...I don't plan on shooting anyone but it's nice to know I can if I need to :)

[BigD4VT 11]

October 4, 1991 I was carjacked at gunpoint. I didn't have a gun so my only option was to follow the gunman's orders... so I did. The whole thing was over in less than a minute and I lived to tell about it. The gun was a .357 that was stolen from the home of one of those responsible gun owners who bought it for protection. They broke in and stole the gun while no one was home... So while that gun was never used for protection it was used in an armed robbery.

 

I had a friend who owned many guns. Handguns, rifles and shotguns. He collected them and used them at a shooting range. I even went with him once and had a lot of fun shooting targets. One day his car was stolen while all those guns were locked in the trunk. The car was unattended for no more than a few minutes but that's all it took. He got the car back a week later... But the guns were gone. I was there when the police came to tell him they found the car. The officer made it a point to tell my friend his guns would probably end up in Gilpin Court. Anyone who's lived in Richmond can tell you that Gilpin Court is one of the deadliest places in that city.

 

I was outside a karaoke bar with some friends. The place had just closed so there were a lot of people out in the parking lot. We saw some guy get the crap beat out of him by the husband of a woman the man had apparently groped. It was over quick and the guy left so we all went about our business. 5 minutes later the guy came back and started firing shots into the crowd. Miraculously no one was hit (which leads me to believe the gun was loaded with blanks) but it could have been a massacre. It was a case of a guy being angry enough, drunk enough, and apparently disturbed enough to do something insane. If he had killed people I don't think an armed citizen could have made a difference. My instinct was to get my friends and myself behind a car. By the time we had done that it was over and the gunman had ran away.

 

Anyone who lived in Richmond at the time will remember the next story. It was all over the news for weeks. A good friend of mine had been out with some friends in Shockoe Bottom. My friend had a pick-up truck so his friends were in the back while his girlfriend was up front with him. They were stopped at a red light when they saw a large group of people walking towards them. He saw a gun come out and immediately hit the gas. Shots were fired through the tailgate of the truck and hit one of his friends in the leg. Luckily only one person was hit and no one was killed. I have no idea where the gun came from but I'd bet it came from a similar source as of one the guns mentioned above.

 

I've thought about owning a gun but I think the chance of it being stolen, or an accident would happen is greater than the chance that I would ever need it. I have no problem with someone like Buzzsaw being armed but he's highly trained and highly skilled. If you allow college students to be armed the highly trained, highly skilled, and highly responsible people will be a small percentage of those who will be armed. There will be more stolen guns and accidents than heroes.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

I just bought another gun....45 ACP...love it so far...the way things are today you have to protect your family...I don't plan on shooting anyone but it's nice to know I can if I need to :)

 

Thats the way most people feel Lance, just like you do who use guns as protection.

 

Anyone read the BDT today? Front page maybe?

 

Maybe you should.

 

Man arrested in fatal shooting

 

By Bill Archer

Bluefield Daily Telegraph

 

FALLS MILLS, Va. — A Mercer County man was pronounced dead on arrival early Saturday morning at Bluefield Regional Medical Center, and a Tazewell County man was arrested on manslaughter charges following an incident at a Falls Mills residence.

 

Wesley K. Miliam Sr., 42, of Kegley had been transported to the hospital from a Compton Road residence prior to the arrival of Tazewell County sheriff’s deputies, according to a press release concerning the incident. Randy Ann Davis, a spokesperson for the Tazewell County Sheriff’s Office said that the county 911 center received a call about “a possible accidental shooting,†at 4:02 a.m., and added that Miliam, “was not transported by the Bluefield, Va., Rescue Squad†to BRMC.

 

Tazewell authorities arrested Randy Miller Howerton, 31, of Bluefield, Va., and charged him with manslaughter, shooting a gun in an occupied dwelling and possession of a firearm by a convicted felon. The press release indicated that Howerton was being held without bond at Southwest Regional Jail in Tazewell, Va., but did not reveal any additional information concerning Howerton’s arrest.

 

Davis said that since the investigation is still pending, she was not authorized to release any additional information about the incident. Detective Anne Hickman and Captain Dave Mills of the Tazewell Sheriff’s Office arrested Howerton and are conducting the investigation.

 

– Contact Bill Archer at barcher@bdtonline.com

 

Another case of a felon getting access to a gun and killing what seems to be an innocent man. Felons can always get guns. This proves it even more, close to home.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

October 4, 1991 I was carjacked at gunpoint. I didn't have a gun so my only option was to follow the gunman's orders... so I did. The whole thing was over in less than a minute and I lived to tell about it. The gun was a .357 that was stolen from the home of one of those responsible gun owners who bought it for protection. They broke in and stole the gun while no one was home... So while that gun was never used for protection it was used in an armed robbery.

 

I had a friend who owned many guns. Handguns, rifles and shotguns. He collected them and used them at a shooting range. I even went with him once and had a lot of fun shooting targets. One day his car was stolen while all those guns were locked in the trunk. The car was unattended for no more than a few minutes but that's all it took. He got the car back a week later... But the guns were gone. I was there when the police came to tell him they found the car. The officer made it a point to tell my friend his guns would probably end up in Gilpin Court. Anyone who's lived in Richmond can tell you that Gilpin Court is one of the deadliest places in that city.

 

I was outside a karaoke bar with some friends. The place had just closed so there were a lot of people out in the parking lot. We saw some guy get the crap beat out of him by the husband of a woman the man had apparently groped. It was over quick and the guy left so we all went about our business. 5 minutes later the guy came back and started firing shots into the crowd. Miraculously no one was hit (which leads me to believe the gun was loaded with blanks) but it could have been a massacre. It was a case of a guy being angry enough, drunk enough, and apparently disturbed enough to do something insane. If he had killed people I don't think an armed citizen could have made a difference. My instinct was to get my friends and myself behind a car. By the time we had done that it was over and the gunman had ran away.

 

Anyone who lived in Richmond at the time will remember the next story. It was all over the news for weeks. A good friend of mine had been out with some friends in Shockoe Bottom. My friend had a pick-up truck so his friends were in the back while his girlfriend was up front with him. They were stopped at a red light when they saw a large group of people walking towards them. He saw a gun come out and immediately hit the gas. Shots were fired through the tailgate of the truck and hit one of his friends in the leg. Luckily only one person was hit and no one was killed. I have no idea where the gun came from but I'd bet it came from a similar source as of one the guns mentioned above.

 

I've thought about owning a gun but I think the chance of it being stolen, or an accident would happen is greater than the chance that I would ever need it. I have no problem with someone like Buzzsaw being armed but he's highly trained and highly skilled. If you allow college students to be armed the highly trained, highly skilled, and highly responsible people will be a small percentage of those who will be armed. There will be more stolen guns and accidents than heroes.

 

All CCW holders have to go to training to recieve their permit. And yes, this includes work at the range with a trained teacher. No one is out there just without a clue. And if you carry and do not fire your arms regularly at the range, then you have a problem and are doing a disservice.

 

And looks like to me like you were located in the 9th most dangerous city in America. The guy who assaulted you would still have done so even if he didnt steal it from someone, he would have bought it off the black market, brought it in over the border, any which way. And how did you know where the gun was from? You never mention the police arrested him? Id say he was probably arrested before. You cant blame people for criminals stealing their things. That is the problem with the legal system.

 

And im still trying to find any info on anyone getting shot by someone carrying a CCW permit firing back at someone who is armed or shooting. If anyone finds it feel free to post it.

Edited January 25, 2009 by BEAVERTAIL

[BigD4VT 11]

I was with the police when they apprehended him a few hours later. He was at Putt Putt flashing his gun and my money. I watched from the front seat of a police car while the robber and his friends were put on the ground and handcuffed. I was able to identify him on the scene but not his accomplices (there were 4-5 guys with him when I was robbed) because by that time there were a lot more guys with him and he was the only one I could recognize for sure.

 

The detective from the Chesterfield County PD called me a couple days later and told me the guy was being charged with armed robbery, use of a firearm in a felony. He told me the gun was stolen from a residence and the guy was also being charged for that. He and his friends were stupid kids from a middle class neighborhood. To my knowledge he was a first time offender. He was convicted but I never knew what his sentence was.

 

In case you're wondering why he was'nt charged for the carjacking... well that's the funny part. He couldn't drive a stick.

Edited January 25, 2009 by BigD4VT

[Lance 228]

well...had some stuff go on around the house during the ice storm, called the cops at 5am and they said "sorry, you are on your own we can't get anyone out there"...that was Saturday...I went Monday and got another gun, won't get caught needing one at home again and not have one. I have always had guns, got rid of them a few years ago when my daughter was around 13 or so...didn't feel like it was a good idea to have them around at that point, but that's mostly because I don't feel she makes very good choices at times...so...was best for them to go...but times have gotten worse over the past 4 years and might be heading for even worse times...next time the cops tell me "you are on your own"...I'll be ready.

[deuceswild 15]

Guns currently are accessible to anyone, and of the people who acquire CCW permits, go through the background check and training, only 1% ever lose their permit. 90% of those are because of non violent crimes. These are the good guys. Guns will ALWAYS be available to people who want them, usually criminals. And people who kill, do not care about breaking the law to get guns. People like me and buzzsaw, we do things the right way. New York placed a ballistic database, where every new handgun sold was fired before and ballistics recorded. Of the people who bought there guns legally during the past 7 years, of all the searches of the ballistic databases only 2 were hits. No one was brought to trial, nothing was charged. 2 hits out of 7000 guns. I think that makes it obvious that people who buy thier guns legally do not commit crimes.

 

Lets just take a brief look at gun free zones, shall we?

 

In a mall incident in Westroads mall in Omaha, 9 people were killed, 4 injured, and the gunman killed himself. It was a gun free zone. No one could stop him. Tragedy ensued.

 

In a mall incident in Salt Lake City Mall, an armed off duty cop saved the lives of many because he defied (technically it was legal because of his badge) the mall's gun free zone. The gunman had already killed 5 before the cop returned fire first. After he was shot dead, the gunman was found to have multiple unregistered guns and a backpack stuffed full of ammo. He wasnt going to stop for awhile. It was Valentines day.

 

So you see, legal guns save lives.

 

Lets look at the shootings at VT. We all know the April tragedy. But do you all know that just up the road at VT 2 students stopped a gunman with an automatic weapon using their own legally owned firearm. That was in Grundy. That was Appalachian School of Law. That is close to home for all of us.

 

One of my best friends lives on Red Oak Ridge in Bluewell, WV, and we both know of a story, that was published in a magazine where a person just a few doors up from him stopped an intruder into his house with a gun with his own. He had a family to protect, and he did. That is even closer.

 

Or what about Columbine-gun free zone. NYC Pizza shop - gun free zone. Pearl HS - gun free zone. VT - gun free zone. Amish school in PA - gun free zone. Or one of the saddest stories, Luby's cafeteria's gun free zone.

 

Luby's cafeteria had a gun free policy, due to Texas law. So when Suzanne Hupp could not carry her legally owned handgun into the Cafe that day, a satanic gunman opened fire and slaughtered innocents, and she could not protect herself or others. She might have stopped it.

 

Gun free zones obviously do not exist from the above incidents. Good, law abiding, CCW legal toting citizen's gun free zones do exist. And that causes problems.

 

Look, I am not here to tell you guns dont kill people. Guns are used by psychotic, insane, hitler/stalin/terrorist loving people who want to cause as much pain as possible especially in these cases I listed above to kill innocent people. Millions of guns are fired every day and a bullet never hits flesh, unless its game (as in deer, rabbit). We only hear about the bad ones. There are 6-8 incidents at LEAST every month I read about where someone uses a legal weapon to stop a criminal. And I smile and thank God that a life or lives were saved.

 

Ill end with this, a quote from Ted Nugent. "To show you how radical I am, I want carjackers dead. I want rapists dead. I want child molesters dead. I want the bad guys dead... Get a gun and when they attack you, shoot them"

 

The police will be the first to tell you they cant protect you, and that you need to protect yourself. Dont let someone take away all you have because of some psychotic streak. Dont let that happen in your presence. Protect what you hold near and dear to you, cause in the end besides God, thats all you have.

 

 

A few examples of how "legal guns" saved lives won't change my mind, but I value the discussion and I see your points. I'm not hating on gun owners, I own one. But I also don't live on campus. Legal or illegal, irresponsible usage and STOWAGE is ultimately what kills people.

 

VT should remain a gun-free zone. Too much alcohol, drugs, girlfriend/boyfriend drama, and depression lurking around.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

There are some campuses that allow CCWs on the premises, and they have had zero problems from what I have seen and heard. Trust me, I know there are complications with having CCWs floating around, but only in my opinion very few will ever get them. Why? Money and time. College students do not have either of those. No one is gonna pay anywhere from 25-100 bucks to take a CCW course that involves quite a few hours, then 90 bucks, at least in WV to get a permit. Also, they will be over 21 years old. I think that will drastically take down the number of permits, but yes there still will be complications.

 

One thing I am all for is CCW for professors. They are not influenced by any of the things you mentioned above. However, Ive yet to see many liberal gun toters these days lol. The chances of a massacre in gun free zones is too high to let it keep going. There has to be a better solution than what we have now.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

No sir. I'm saying I don't agree with gun arguments and used this case as a metaphor. I feel if you make guns more available to either obtain via permit or steal from others, then more senseless acts of rage and violence would likely occur. I don't feel like I would ever feel safe if more people had a gun. I don't know how I could. Real life is not a multi-player game of Call of Duty, you don't respawn.

 

Since when is decapitating more compliant with rules on campus??

 

Quite a few people are careful with their guns, are not likely to go ape and kill people, and are mindful of where they can keep it out of the hands of others.. I'm not saying no American should ever carry a gun. But on a college campus where thousands of different cultures, angry people, depressed people, etc collide, I don't feel like its the safest venue and warrants extreme gun control. And apparently some form of kitchen knife control (although extremely unlikely). That doesn't make students anymore defenseless as it does more safe. Its really hard for even a coffee shop full of gun toters to stop someone from surprise attacking another with a knife. Knives don't go bang and knives aren't illegal. Guns wouldn't have done a thing (except maybe cause more mass fear and confusion).

 

Please don't call my arguments ridiculous, they are only opposite of yours but equally educated.

 

It is a ridiculous comment, murderers don't care about laws or "gun free zones" or anything, you suggested this he would have used a gun if it weren't for guns being illegal on campus.

 

"Since when is decapitating more compliant with rules on campus??"

 

that was basically the point.

 

If you are to incompetent to carry a gun so be it, if you more people having guns is more dangerous so be it, but I have a "God given right" to protect myself, with a firearm, according the 2nd amendment, and va. tech doesn't have the right to put me at the mercy of other people especially when they themselves are completely incompetent at being able to keep students safe and seem to put only minimal efforts into doing so.

 

The 2nd amendment doesn't protect my right to own a firearm, it protects the "God given right" for someone to protect themselves with a firearm or weapon.

 

And here's the thing about it, even if they had conceal carry on campus, few people would actually carry, many people would feel as you do, or that it wasn't worth the class and training or cost to obtain a permit. In the end it would be only a handful of people who would be wise enough to be prepared and use the opportunity to carry a weapon out of the many.

How many people %wise carry as it is? It wouldn't be any different on a campus.

 

Last thing to consider, you, as a man, have an obligation to protect those around you who can't protect themselves, specifically if it's women and children. Certain you're responsible for your own protection as well.

If someone doesn't accept this responsibility, doesn't prepare to do it as best as possible, then they are being completely irresponsible, selfish and incompetent as a man, "for putting that burden on someone else".

Those who determine that they will accept that responsibility, who will be prepared, are then task with not only protecting the women and children, but you to.

This isn't the way is should be. As a man you should be responsible and charge yourself with your own protection and be ready to offer any help and protection you can provide for the helpless to. If nothing else when you have a family, I'm right certain God would say you have a responsibility to protect them, yourself, not depend on someone else to protect your family.

You have an obligation to stand up to bad and confront evil in the big scheme........

[deuceswild 15]

It is a ridiculous comment, murderers don't care about laws or "gun free zones" or anything, you suggested this he would have used a gun if it weren't for guns being illegal on campus.

 

"Since when is decapitating more compliant with rules on campus??"

 

that was basically the point.

 

If you are to incompetent to carry a gun so be it, if you more people having guns is more dangerous so be it, but I have a "God given right" to protect myself, with a firearm, according the 2nd amendment, and va. tech doesn't have the right to put me at the mercy of other people especially when they themselves are completely incompetent at being able to keep students safe and seem to put only minimal efforts into doing so.

 

The 2nd amendment doesn't protect my right to own a firearm, it protects the "God given right" for someone to protect themselves with a firearm or weapon.

 

And here's the thing about it, even if they had conceal carry on campus, few people would actually carry, many people would feel as you do, or that it wasn't worth the class and training or cost to obtain a permit. In the end it would be only a handful of people who would be wise enough to be prepared and use the opportunity to carry a weapon out of the many.

How many people %wise carry as it is? It wouldn't be any different on a campus.

 

Last thing to consider, you, as a man, have an obligation to protect those around you who can't protect themselves, specifically if it's women and children. Certain you're responsible for your own protection as well.

If someone doesn't accept this responsibility, doesn't prepare to do it as best as possible, then they are being completely irresponsible, selfish and incompetent as a man, "for putting that burden on someone else".

Those who determine that they will accept that responsibility, who will be prepared, are then task with not only protecting the women and children, but you to.

This isn't the way is should be. As a man you should be responsible and charge yourself with your own protection and be ready to offer any help and protection you can provide for the helpless to. If nothing else when you have a family, I'm right certain God would say you have a responsibility to protect them, yourself, not depend on someone else to protect your family.

You have an obligation to stand up to bad and confront evil in the big scheme........

 

Lets drag poor God out of the clouds and throw him in some irrational gun control argument. It is my "God given right" I guess, and more importantly my constitutional one, to continue to petition any movement to place more guns on campus which increases the probability and likelihood of atrocities upon myself or others (major or minor).

 

It is more ridiculous and pitiful that you believe throwing more matches in the fire will put it out. Lets talk honor about protecting women and children... things you can do without a gun simply by removing those things from particular venues (i.e. College Campuses). I'm not arguing the second amendment, it's VT's right to restrict guns from their campus (it is an airline's right to restrict guns from their planes) as it is my right to restrict them from my home or vehicle OR our rights (mine and yours) to continue to babble about it on here knowing neither of us are going to change the mind of the other (but it sure is fun ain't it Buzzsaw?). You pay admission at VT, you understand that you cannot tote your pea-shooter there no matter what God or Ben Franklin thinks.

 

One other thing. Most anyone can obtain a gun, right? You said so yourself. I know of at least a half dozen people on this campus today, in spite of what all has happened in the last two years, that I would not trust with a firearm anywhere near campus. Whether they are self-destructive, violent toward others, or depressed, they would be a time-bomb waiting to explode. I worked in the Cook Counseling Center for two years (what appears to be normal people with clean backgrounds are in reality completely bonkers). You have an obligation to protect what is yours. Your wife, family, or kids. And VT has a right to protect what is theirs, which is what Blacksburg and Campus Police are for. They attempt to protect us by removing possible dangers. It's the same reason you lock the cabinets under the sink around toddlers. Toddlers are like tiny little drunk people, who knows what they will do with something if they get their hands on it. These institutions (law enforcement entities) aren't perfect, but I'm sure campus police would not agree with students being allowed to conceal their own weapons on campus. (Maybe we should at least all get tasers? Someone gets out of line we can just make them chill the ef out). The campus police, as well as I, would lose much sleep over the idea. The idea of protecting every innocent student on campus sounds appealing and I wish I wore a cape to do so, but reality is, you just can't trust anyone or everyone. You can't expect people to operate as normal simply off of fear that someone else has a gun.

 

Someone said professors should have a right to a gun in the classroom. This I can see myself agreeing with if certain tenured professors who have been trained and all that good stuff chose to do so. And if it could be concealed so that no students could attain it, obviously. Sure, I would feel safe as hell in class then. But not with 60 others behind me whom I do not know which may or may not have a gun and may or may not have good intentions of using it.

 

I realize that the trust argument has two sides. "I need a gun because I can't trust anyone, which means everyone should have a gun" and my side is "There should be no guns, since no one can be trusted". To each their own I suppose.

[deuceswild 15]

The chances of a massacre in gun free zones is too high to let it keep going. There has to be a better solution than what we have now.

 

 

Haha, I'm actually starting to consider the taser idea I spouted out a second ago. If we can keep people from using them as rape tools, and for defense instead, it would be awesome. Nobody dies.. er well, no one is intended to. And you have to follow the same rigorous training and payment and age restrictions as you do a gun.

 

Or the tranquilizer darts they use in Ace Ventura. I'm all about flat-lining some d-bag for a few minutes, it's really hard to massacre 32 people with darts anyway.

 

Then there is the argument, "What if people taser/tranq dart the police and take their guns?"

 

DAMN LOOPHOLES!

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

You do have a God given right to protect yourself, the country was founded on that, if you prefer not to use that right or think of your life as something you'd surrender to someone else so be it, don't expect what amounts to obviously a few out of many to surrender theirs so easily.

I realize va tech and other places have policies that people can't carry guns, if you hadn't noticed I'm writing that's ignorant and unsafe, and is a policy that should be changed.

It should be obvious to anyone that va tech with their campus police and security and many other places like it "are not able to protect the people there".

It's not about the fear of others having guns and preventing crimes, it's often about actually stopping something from happening to more people, as beavertail pointed out 1 incident at the mall in utah when someone with a firearm stopped what would have been a much higher body count because he was carrying.

Statistics overwhelmingly support most victims of crimes and murder being unarmed and defenseless.

Life isn't perfect correct, and you can't stop every crime, never suggested you could, but it doesn't have to be an ongoing body count till the murderer decides it's high enough and defers to put a bullet in their own mouth.

If I preferred to use the selfish route I could simply say it's about me being able to protect my life.

People without felonies can obtain concealed carry permits after nra approved classes and training, and registration with the sheriffs office for a fee in many states, at age of 21. That eliminates a lot of the more immature types at college and most people wouldn't bother.

The idea that it would be the wild west is a proven misconception or it would already be that way in basic society where conceal carry is permitted.

 

You can argue you have your opinion so be it, but your opinion would likely make you and everyone else you would force that on to be just another defenseless victim in the body count in a life or death situation.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

But not with 60 others behind me whom I do not know which may or may not have a gun and may or may not have good intentions of using it.

 

My question is to you then is this; when you go out to eat at Buffalo Wild Wings, to Walmart, to Kroger, to church, do you feel threatened? You live in a world where CCWs exist everywhere. I would bet within a few weeks to month, you would realize that you wouldnt be scared on campus, just like you arent scared in public places. The same people can have concealed weapons in both places if campus carry was legalized.

 

Not trying to pick on you, but this is a common argument which is misconstrued and I understand why. It would be creepy not knowing who has what, but hey it is in the same in the real world 24/7 and no one is truly scared or has a reason to be from a CCW holder.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

 

Not trying to pick on you, but this is a common argument which is misconstrued and I understand why. It would be creepy not knowing who has what, but hey it is in the same in the real world 24/7 and no one is truly scared or has a reason to be from a CCW holder.

 

well said. Does it scare someone to think that 1 of the 60 people in back of them might have a high capacity pistol, lots of rounds and intentions of going out with a bang because they're angry at the world? What stops that, nothing. So why would anyone fear the students behind that would actually be carrying a gun for the right reasons?

[deuceswild 15]

My question is to you then is this; when you go out to eat at Buffalo Wild Wings, to Walmart, to Kroger, to church, do you feel threatened? You live in a world where CCWs exist everywhere. I would bet within a few weeks to month, you would realize that you wouldnt be scared on campus, just like you arent scared in public places. The same people can have concealed weapons in both places if campus carry was legalized.

 

Not trying to pick on you, but this is a common argument which is misconstrued and I understand why. It would be creepy not knowing who has what, but hey it is in the same in the real world 24/7 and no one is truly scared or has a reason to be from a CCW holder.

 

BTW, I feel like you're following me around. You just rattled off my four favorite places in the world.

 

I feel safe in these places for the same reason I feel safe in class. It is against societal norms for guns to be brandished or used in these areas. If that were changed, and signs were put up that read, "Have no fear, bring your gun in here", I'd no doubt go elsewhere. Like I would imagine most people would.

 

You're right, concealed weapon holders don't wear scarlet letters nor should they, or I myself and most of my family would be walking around with big red W's on our chests and it wouldn't be for "winners" either unfortunately. There is no win to this argument and I understand that, I hope each of you do as well.

 

Your belief that guns would make you more safe is great. I trust you guys with guns and I wouldn't mind if you had one in my class, my church, my Kroger, my Wal-Mart, or my B-dubs. You can't really speak for everyone though and I wish I could, but I just really feel, and I know you guys disagree, (but thats cool, this is AMURICA!!) if more people could get away with owning and having their weapons with them in places like class and wherever else then more incidents would happen. You're right, the body count would be less for maybe one event. I just maybe think there would be more events... unwarranted events. Perhaps even accidents that could have been prevented.

 

I noticed neither of you mentioned that you liked the tranquilizing blow-dart idea, haha.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

Haha, I just thought of the last 4 places I had been when I was in Blacksburg, minus church in the burg, I went there yesterday at home. But this morning my uncle who is a preacher called and I was talking to him, and I remember him asking a few members of his congregation to carry inside the building. Thats why I mentioned that.

 

But honestly, I think our differences stem from who is going to have these weapons. I would even go as far to have stricter policies with on campus carry, even going to a meeting or a shooting/personal protection class every week. I always look at drills online to do at the range to help enhance my skills. This just would add to the fact that not that many people will want to get the CCW and actually carry their weapon. 10% of the population does, I think thats the last number I read, then you have to think of that number then how many is from the ages 21-23 have CCW permits? I would guess very few. But then again I may be wrong. I only know of 1 person at Concord who has one, and he got it just a few weeks ago. You think there if there is campus carry there will be more, which I could see why. There probably would be a lot of hype for one, and it would be the buzz round campus. I can think of thousands of people I woudnt want to have one that go to college. Responsibility being the main reason. But Im not so sure all these people would go through the program. We will probably never find out.

 

As for the blow dart idea, well I wouldnt mind carrying one around lol. Heck, I wouldnt mind carrying around my english longbow with a quiver. No one would mess with you and it can be used to stop anyone. LOL. But i guess my longbow can cause more damage than your blowdart. I think this thread has provided a lot of information, and I think we all agree that massacres should not happen and we have to stop the potential for them. Professors carrying, tazers, carry on campus, and maybe even blowdarts would all help the situation, and the fact that we are talking about it makes us think of more ideas. I think you came up with tazers, and I came up with Professors carry both during responding. We wouldnt have if we werent talking about it. Thats a positive.