I'd personally like to thank any obama voters

[dawgs05 10]

Thank you. Fiscally, he's like W on steroids. I suppose "change" can also mean change for the worse.

 

At least Clinton had the sense the raise taxes with spending. Kind of a wash with NAFTA, though.

Were it not for NAFTA, he's probably the 2nd-best president of the 20th Century. And I really believe that.

 

I still think he was 2nd best of the 20th century.....behind FDR of course

[Deleted Account 5,203]

I still think he was 2nd best of the 20th century.....behind FDR of course

 

Were it not for NAFTA, I'd totally agree.

NAFTA's got the potential to be the single-worst piece of legislation ever drafted.

And Clinton passed it. :(

[fieldgeneral 10]

People don't have to withhold judgment on you or liberals for the simple fact that what you and they consider "hardcore republican nonsense" is nothing more than the highest principals and beliefs that this country was founded under, those things that have made America the great country it has been. Our side is what America has been all about all along.

 

That's fine , it's obvious that the republican sleepover has begun, I'll go join the majority of the country that voted for him and hope and pray that he does the right things to right the wrongs of the Bush Administration. We can all hope that he has time to bring the change he wants to. Yes he has promised some things that haven't came yet, but a lot of things have to be corrected before he can attempt to do the things he wants to do for this country.

 

Noone has questioned the highest principles / beliefs of this country. Only those of you that cannot stand having a Democrat or someone who isn't GWB or another Repub in the WH are being questioned. I'm obviously not the only one that think some of you are way off base here. This type of behavior is how extremist groups are born. If you love your country as you say you do, then back your president and when he has done something that truly harms our country intentionally, then hack away, impeach even. Besides, If he were to even dare take our country away from the morals / beliefs / principles, he would be impeached in a heart beat.

 

All of this whining started when he won the democratic nomination. Then his birth was in question. All I've heard is every excuse in the book why he couldn't be President, then he breathed the wrong way, then his tie was crooked, then someone didn't like the dog choice. GET OVER IT PEOPLE. You have a BLACK president and someone who is trying to change America. It needs some changing. We have been on a moral decay for years now. Even our last president used our military to settle a score, whether you beleive it not. I know that NOONE on here has the BALLS to admit it, but race is what fuels some of the dislike for our current President. Those that aren't in that pool are in the OMG he's not a Republican, we should elect Rush "needs a punch in the face" Limballs pool. You're lack of American hope / trust / and patience is sickening.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

That's fine , it's obvious that the republican sleepover has begun, I'll go join the majority of the country that voted for him and hope and pray that he does the right things to right the wrongs of the Bush Administration. We can all hope that he has time to bring the change he wants to. Yes he has promised some things that haven't came yet, but a lot of things have to be corrected before he can attempt to do the things he wants to do for this country.

 

Noone has questioned the highest principles / beliefs of this country. Only those of you that cannot stand having a Democrat or someone who isn't GWB or another Repub in the WH are being questioned. I'm obviously not the only one that think some of you are way off base here. This type of behavior is how extremist groups are born. If you love your country as you say you do, then back your president and when he has done something that truly harms our country intentionally, then hack away, impeach even. Besides, If he were to even dare take our country away from the morals / beliefs / principles, he would be impeached in a heart beat.

 

All of this whining started when he won the democratic nomination. Then his birth was in question. All I've heard is every excuse in the book why he couldn't be President, then he breathed the wrong way, then his tie was crooked, then someone didn't like the dog choice. GET OVER IT PEOPLE. You have a BLACK president and someone who is trying to change America. It needs some changing. We have been on a moral decay for years now. Even our last president used our military to settle a score, whether you beleive it not. I know that NOONE on here has the BALLS to admit it, but race is what fuels some of the dislike for our current President. Those that aren't in that pool are in the OMG he's not a Republican, we should elect Rush "needs a punch in the face" Limballs pool. You're lack of American hope / trust / and patience is sickening.

 

1. As if Republicans aren't hoping and praying that Obama leads us out of the wilderness. I know I am.

2. And I love how conservatives are now labeled "terrorists" or "extremists". Sore winners, perhaps?

3. I will respect my president, and I always will. That, however, does NOT disallow me from criticizing pathetic policy. And I did with GWB often.

4a. There's a difference in whining and questioning the man's background and company he kept, which was quite shady.

4b. It doesn't take 2 months to make a mistake. Patience is a virtue, but so is leading instead of letting the legislative execute.

5. I love how you accent "BLACK". I see no racists on this board, and to imply such cheapens your entire argument.

6. Along with #5, if you think that even a sizable minority on here is racist, you're gravely, sorely mistaken.

7. I'm glad you advocate the crime of battery upon Rush. I've not seen 1 conservative do the same to Obama.

8. Your blind faith and your baseless accusations of racism are what's truly sickening.

Edited April 19, 2009 by UVAObserver

[Guest JJBrickface]

Nafta was bad and FieldGeneral will continue to neglect the fact that Obama is just a clone of George W Bush when it comes to spending.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

The BLACK in bold was really obvious to me as well. It's obvious all your opinions are nothing more than what you hear or read from liberal media. 1 of my best friends ever was black. I could care less if the president is black, so could most republicans.

I do however care if he has a preference for islam over christianity and pushes that, and

talk about all the change you care to, but the u.s. doesn't need to be friends with communist and enemy countries, abandon God, have a weak foreign policy, embrace socialism, and have a government that intends to take as much control of the way of American life as possible.

You can't comprehend that it's not about what he hasn't done as much as it is with what he has done.

It's odd you tell people to accept something and embrace it after 3 months, less we be radicals who part of the problem, and yet you've complained about the war in iraq, that the u.s. won, for how many "years"?

And for all the "support your president talk from you", you still can't hardly ever post anything without complaining about Bush, so remind us how much support Bush ever got from you or your side?

It would be rhetorical to read from you defending any of this administrations major policies that have been listed in this post for example, how they won't harm the country or why that's change the country needs, but you never do, I doubt you even know much about them at that, all you'll ever do tell everyone about how it's all change that America has to have. You never offer any substance to tell any reasons that it's good or benefits America, only that it does..

[fieldgeneral 10]

The BLACK in bold was really obvious to me as well. It's obvious all your opinions are nothing more than what you hear or read from liberal media. 1 of my best friends ever was black. I could care less if the president is black, so could most republicans.

I do however care if he has a preference for islam over christianity and pushes that, and

talk about all the change you care to, but the u.s. doesn't need to be friends with communist and enemy countries, abandon God, have a weak foreign policy, embrace socialism, and have a government that intends to take as much control of the way of American life as possible.

You can't comprehend that it's not about what he hasn't done as much as it is with what he has done.

It's odd you tell people to accept something and embrace it after 3 months, less we be radicals who part of the problem, and yet you've complained about the war in iraq, that the u.s. won, for how many "years"?

And for all the "support your president talk from you", you still can't hardly ever post anything without complaining about Bush, so remind us how much support Bush ever got from you or your side?

It would be rhetorical to read from you defending any of this administrations major policies that have been listed in this post for example, how they won't harm the country or why that's change the country needs, but you never do, I doubt you even know much about them at that, all you'll ever do tell everyone about how it's all change that America has to have. You never offer any substance to tell any reasons that it's good or benefits America, only that it does..

 

It was meant to be noticed or it wouldn't have been bold. I can say with 100% confidence that his race is an issue with some and yes on this beloved board. I never any of you specifically, so don't get your drawers in a wad. I know many of you are up on your politics, but as I am accused of , you all read nothing but your GOP TV/news. Some of you are unbiased. UVAOBSERVER, I've never had issue with anything that you have written. Most of your comments are done tastefully and fairly.

 

War in Iraq......won? What exactly did WE win. Yes we helped rid the world of a MEGA a-hole. We are spending MEGA TONS of money to rebuild what we blew up and then some. The war wasn't needed at the time. Had we concentrated on finding Bin Laden instead of leading the invasion of Iraq, we might have been successful. Instead we have thousands killed for some WMD that dissappeard into thin air. Apparently saddaam was also a magician.

 

I supported Bush both times even though I didn't vote for him. I hoped for the best. I was always embarrassed to see him do any public speaking however didn't show a lack of support much until second term. I didn't like a lot of policies or decisions , but I never spoke of how he was "ruining America" as some here do.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

Just a little note from what I see here.

 

We see the administration with the Homeland Security memos, and the news coverage of the Tea Parties, labeling right wingers as "extremists".

 

Then we see that no good actor and Olbermann commenting that we are "racists" and "rednecks".

 

Seems to me that we are seeing this translated to the average liberal above, and I think the average liberal is becoming a production of the media.

 

But the thing that just absolutely drives me crazy is how inept the people on this board are that voted for Obama. All of them say we will just wait. We will give him time and hope and pray. No no no no NO! You DO NOT do that. If you want to be a true democratic, informed citizen you let them know what you feel about their policies. You have that right and you should show it. You dont hire a worker and let him do whatever he wants, no you tell him what to do. The goverment must answer to you. You picked them, and you will or will not again. Do your part and watch what your, our, admin and congress does and when they step out of line, or if they do a great thing let them know.

 

I send one email to a politician about every day, although I have slowed down over the past week as WV legislature and Congress have not been in session.

Edited April 19, 2009 by BEAVERTAIL

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

Nafta was bad and FieldGeneral will continue to neglect the fact that Obama is just a clone of George W Bush when it comes to spending.

 

And now we are all racist.

[fieldgeneral 10]

1. As if Republicans aren't hoping and praying that Obama leads us out of the wilderness. I know I am.

2. And I love how conservatives are now labeled "terrorists" or "extremists". Sore winners, perhaps?

3. I will respect my president, and I always will. That, however, does NOT disallow me from criticizing pathetic policy. And I did with GWB often.

4a. There's a difference in whining and questioning the man's background and company he kept, which was quite shady.

4b. It doesn't take 2 months to make a mistake. Patience is a virtue, but so is leading instead of letting the legislative execute.

5. I love how you accent "BLACK". I see no racists on this board, and to imply such cheapens your entire argument.

6. Along with #5, if you think that even a sizable minority on here is racist, you're gravely, sorely mistaken.

7. I'm glad you advocate the crime of battery upon Rush. I've not seen 1 conservative do the same to Obama.

8. Your blind faith and your baseless accusations of racism are what's truly sickening.

 

 

5/6 I know the area very well, lived here many years, even more so than you, and still do. I never mentioned anyone specifically, just saying I'm sure that is the reason for some , I'm sure. Not you, not beaver, buzz, or anyone specifically. Apologies if that is what you read into it.

 

7. Rush is an idiot!

 

8. Not blind faith, just support. I gave the previous some time before judging, I'll do the same with this one. Noone has been accused of anything. You are in Law school, no proof of specifically accusing anyone here.

[dawgs05 10]

Were it not for NAFTA, I'd totally agree.

NAFTA's got the potential to be the single-worst piece of legislation ever drafted.

And Clinton passed it. :(

 

Thats very true.....I remember my dad was totally against it when it passed and he was a huge clinton supporter.....guess it made millions of mexicans happy, unfortunately

[Deleted Account 5,203]

5/6 I know the area very well, lived here many years, even more so than you, and still do. I never mentioned anyone specifically, just saying I'm sure that is the reason for some , I'm sure. Not you, not beaver, buzz, or anyone specifically. Apologies if that is what you read into it.

 

7. Rush is an idiot!

 

8. Not blind faith, just support. I gave the previous some time before judging, I'll do the same with this one. Noone has been accused of anything. You are in Law school, no proof of specifically accusing anyone here.

 

Apology accepted.

But even though Rush may be a blind ideologue, it doesn't mean that we should wish him harm.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

"It was meant to be noticed or it wouldn't have been bold. I can say with 100% confidence that his race is an issue with some and yes on this beloved board."

 

So it was only a generic racial accusation, certainly those of us "you were responding to" should know that isn't aimed at us. Of course.

 

 

" you all read nothing but your GOP TV/news."

 

Or perhaps some of us simply know that communism is bad, or that stopping production of the f 22s or downsizing the nuclear warheads to 1,500 is bad. Or that the document this topic was originally about declaring veterans potential threats to the country is bad.

Much of this doesn't have to be reported as bad from any of the few conservative news agencies that there are, they only have to be reported, I and many others can tell from the simple reports of the matters that many of these things are bad.

 

 

"War in Iraq......won? What exactly did WE win. Yes we helped rid the world of a MEGA a-hole. We are spending MEGA TONS of money to rebuild what we blew up and then some. The war wasn't needed at the time. Had we concentrated on finding Bin Laden instead of leading the invasion of Iraq, we might have been successful. Instead we have thousands killed for some WMD that dissappeard into thin air. Apparently saddaam was also a magician."

 

You're a disgrace undermining what 5,000 some Americans gave their lives for, the war was indeed won, and you're a disgrace for undermining the efforts of America's best special ops in afghanastan. You simply can't comprehend, nor will you recognize that the u.s. has had their absolute best troops on the matter in afghan since '01.

As I've written before, perhaps you critics on the liberal side, most of whom will never serve day 1 in the military, could sign up and put your life on the line there and show them how they should have done it.

As for iraq the liberals in the media, in politics and in public anti war rallies disgracefully proclaimed that the u.s. had lost the war as loudly as they could, as often as they could in '05 and '06. But it didn't go as yall had hoped for, there weren't millions of iraqis killed in civil war, the u.s. wasn't bogged down and tens of thousands of u.s. troops killed, and it wasn't another vietnam.

The combat troops will be home, security of their country will be turned over to them, as it already has been in some of the worst provinces such as the anbar, they, the iraqi people will have the opportunity to make their country whatever they want it. The children there have the best chance at a good life by far than ever before.

In fact it's quite a 180 degree difference from what the liberals proclaimed and hoped for. It's only a defeat to people like yourself who disgracefully hate that the u.s. won.

 

"I never spoke of how he was "ruining America" as some here do."

 

That's because he never was. The economy had been getting worse for decades, and bigger government under bush or not, at least he was putting America 1st and staying true to the foundations of this country, not treading on them.

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

Apology accepted.

But even though Rush may be a blind ideologue, it doesn't mean that we should wish him harm.

 

I don't know the reason so many people, aside from liberals, suggest rush is a fool, like his personality or not the guy knows more about the foundations of this country and legislature, economics and American history than most people here combined. He is very intelligent and informed about America past and present.

My fault with him is that he refuses to become a leader instead of just a talk show host..

[bucfan64 307]

Lets face it, Liberalism is an ideology that agrees with everything as long as everything agrees with it. It is based on the principal, that ANYTHING AND I MEAN ANYTHING, that disagrees with it is evil, racist and bad for the country. There is no middle ground when it comes to this way of thinking they firmly believe that EVERYTHING that they advocate and support is good, the opposite of what they desire is BAD OR EVIL. I did support the Republican party for a long time, until I finally realized that everything they did was not in my best interest let along that of the country. I can admit that however whereas a liberal cannot and will not.

 

I hope that I never get to the point, that I cannot admit that I am wrong, I believe that reasonable people can agree to disagree without assuming the other is evil.

 

I DO NOT RELY ON FOX NEWS to tell me what is right or wrong for this country, I have something inside me called MORALS, VALUES and COMMON SENSE. It would do some liberals well to try this approach for once. Liberals assume that because they are force fed liberal indoctrination from sources like NY Times, CNN, MSNBC, NBC etc, that conservatives must have there source as well. NOT THE CASE HERE!

 

I for one have never observed the president as being a BLACK president, I just don't view him that way. I do view his policies as Socialist and I am opposed to socialism, I hope he somehow pulls this country out of this mess, but something inside me says, based on the measures taken so far, it isn't going to help.

 

 

However, because I support gun rights, am pro-life, believe that marriage is an institution between a man and a woman, am opposed to entitlement and detest overspending I am now labled a RACIST.

 

If these God Fearing, conservative values that I hold makes me a racist than I am must be a racist. However for the record, what do those values have to do with a pesons skin color?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Edited April 19, 2009 by bucfan64

[bluefieldRocks 14]

I believe in a lot of the same things you do bucfan, I believe abortion shouldnt be legal unless there is a reason (rape, health problems with the mother or baby if she has it). I believe that Gay marrige should be banned. Don't get me wrong, I would like to refer to myself as more of an Independent, but I lean Democrat. I didnt pick sides. I didnt vote for Obama because he was black. I picked Obama because the bigger issues at hand, I think he would do a better job. I'll leave this political talk at that.

[fieldgeneral 10]

[quote name=buzzsawBeaver;183703You're a disgrace undermining what 5' date='000 some Americans gave their lives for, the war was indeed won, and you're a disgrace for undermining the efforts of America's best special ops in afghanastan. You simply can't comprehend, nor will you recognize that the u.s. has had their absolute best troops on the matter in afghan since '01.

As I've written before, perhaps you critics on the liberal side, most of whom will never serve day 1 in the military, could sign up and put your life on the line there and show them how they should have done it.

[/quote]

 

You are the disgrace. I support our country and our troops and no matter what you say, not all troops agreed to what they were assigned to do in Iraq. I have friends and family that have went more than once. Losing 5,000 lives is a win? You know exactly what I mean by it not being a win. We lost a lot of men and women for what? I acknowledged that we got rid of Saddam. That wasn't our reason for going there to begin with. That's another arguement.

 

I know we have been in Afghanistan, but had we used our largest concentration of troops there instead of the untimely invasion of Iraq, we might have captured the Evil person that was the lead of 9-11. But we chose to chase WMDS that have to this day not shown up.

 

My father served in the Air Force and was involved and worked in a refueling tanker that refueled planes in air. I have friends and family in the military as well. You have no need to preach to me. Have you served? I myself have not, however I contemplated it coming out of HS. I chose college instead, sue me. God forbid, I go and get a college education and contribute to society. If there were ever the need for me to, I would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately , those that serve aren't the ones who make those decisions, unless highly ranked.

 

Since you're so vocal, why aren't you trying to get into politics and make some changes instead of fussing about it?

 

Back to my first sentence, you ARE THE DISGRACE. YOU constantly want to question someone's patriotism and all you can try to do is try to bend someon's words to make it seem as if they aren't greatful for their military / government etc.... Once again all this antil american government bashing makes me ill. I'll leave you folks to your pretend patriotism.

[Guest JJBrickface]

Fieldgeneral,

 

Don't even go blaming the Bush administration solely for the WMD mistake.

 

What do George W Bush, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, Madeline Albright, Jay Rockefeller, and Nancy Pelosi have in common?

 

They all said that Saddam had WMD and was a threat to the Unites States. They were for the Iraq War until things became tough. True leadership would have been these politicians sticking to their guns and putting country over party. Not saying that the Bush administration didn't make mistakes in Iraq, they did...but more could have been achieved had the Democrats who voted for military use stand behind what they said instead of weltering under pressure, it only divided this country more. Thank God our troops in Iraq didn't listen to their negativity!

[buzzsawBeaver 12]

You are the disgrace. I support our country and our troops and no matter what you say, not all troops agreed to what they were assigned to do in Iraq. I have friends and family that have went more than once. Losing 5,000 lives is a win? You know exactly what I mean by it not being a win. We lost a lot of men and women for what? I acknowledged that we got rid of Saddam. That wasn't our reason for going there to begin with. That's another arguement.

 

I know we have been in Afghanistan, but had we used our largest concentration of troops there instead of the untimely invasion of Iraq, we might have captured the Evil person that was the lead of 9-11. But we chose to chase WMDS that have to this day not shown up.

 

My father served in the Air Force and was involved and worked in a refueling tanker that refueled planes in air. I have friends and family in the military as well. You have no need to preach to me. Have you served? I myself have not, however I contemplated it coming out of HS. I chose college instead, sue me. God forbid, I go and get a college education and contribute to society. If there were ever the need for me to, I would do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately , those that serve aren't the ones who make those decisions, unless highly ranked.

 

Since you're so vocal, why aren't you trying to get into politics and make some changes instead of fussing about it?

 

Back to my first sentence, you ARE THE DISGRACE. YOU constantly want to question someone's patriotism and all you can try to do is try to bend someon's words to make it seem as if they aren't greatful for their military / government etc.... Once again all this antil american government bashing makes me ill. I'll leave you folks to your pretend patriotism.

 

Actually most troops who were there overwhelmingly were all for it, most were very angry, upset, opinionated about the anti war opinions, particularly the media saying they were losing. "Losing 5,000 troops is a win?", what don't you understand about the word sacrifice? Everyone of them would tell you it was for a win.

You're a disgrace because of the way you consistently undermine the u.s. military and it's accomplishments, you can't even man up and tell them they won. You can't even recognize the efforts in Afghan, to you and liberals, their sacrifice there hasn't been good enough.

There isn't a substitute for the best troops we have, what's hard to comprehend about that, the best the u.s. has has been on the situation for 8 years now.

It doesn't matter who in your family served, your words of criticism for the military aren't any different. I did serve, 4 enlistments and 1 tour..

The only thing you're accurate about is me questioning your American values.

[fieldgeneral 10]

Actually most troops who were there overwhelmingly were all for it, most were very angry, upset, opinionated about the anti war opinions, particularly the media saying they were losing. "Losing 5,000 troops is a win?", what don't you understand about the word sacrifice? Everyone of them would tell you it was for a win.

You're a disgrace because of the way you consistently undermine the u.s. military and it's accomplishments, you can't even man up and tell them they won. You can't even recognize the efforts in Afghan, to you and liberals, their sacrifice there hasn't been good enough.

There isn't a substitute for the best troops we have, what's hard to comprehend about that, the best the u.s. has has been on the situation for 8 years now.

It doesn't matter who in your family served, your words of criticism for the military aren't any different. I did serve, 4 enlistments and 1 tour..

The only thing you're accurate about is me questioning your American values.

 

Actually I was right about your disgrace. I am proud of everyone for what they have done when they were called to duty and yes even YOU! There are a lot of those men and women who when away from their company, tour, or comanding officers, and so forth would tell you they disagree with what happened there. I have heard it myself. You may disagree, but you go and do your job and they did. One is working on his second trip to Iraq.

 

I understand what sacrifice is , ask all the moms, dads, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, and so on that can't hold their loved ones or tell them they love them all for something they may not have been the right move. If they were lost defending the country, then I'm sure those people could deal with their loss better. There are many who feel those men and women were lost for reasons other than what they needed to be "sacrificed" for.

 

I have never undermined anything our military does. I questioned the reason some of it was done. YOU LOVE to turn something said into something else to fit your argument. I was proud the day that statue fell. I can tell you exactly where I was what I was doing and who I was with. I was proud when our SEALS took out those 3 pirates last week, go look at the post I made. I've been proud of everything done in Afghanistan, I know work is being done and progress is being made , but all I was saying is that if we would have concentrated our efforts there , we may have caught the man we were looking for. That sir is questioning the decisions of Bush's Administration, not the soldiers. Don't twist my words, that's disgraceful.

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

Its rather simple. Fieldgeneral doesnt know what he is talking about when it comes to these wars, and I will explain why. At one point, I didnt either.

 

First off, he takes into example how we can not find Osama Bin Laden. But we did find Sadam Hussein didnt we? There is a main difference in why we can not find Osama, and why we never will. But you have to know the people and the culture of both in order to understand this reasoning.

 

In Iraq, people were being hit with genocide every day. When US forces came, they were relieved. They readily gave information on Sadam Hussien if they understood what it meant to be free. (I know that is a hard thought to swallow). With the insider information and being able to network within Iraq, we found him with relative ease. We had information, and we could use it.

 

Now to Afghanistan, which I have grown fond of understanding and reading about lately. These Afghans, were mostly ruled by the Taliban for most of their lives. If they were not, then they also found Russian influence on their lives. The point is, many of them turn to the Taliban and consider them a main reason for their prosperity. So why would they give up information on the Taliban? Many of the main leaders of the towns/villages when the US came, left the Taliban and became locals and leaders of the towns. They still had the interest of the Taliban at heart. They would hide Bin Laden for anything.

 

But yet we still try to recapture and restructure Afghanistan, which is why Obama called for the "surge" as well as the military did. But I am not sure it can be done. Why? If you ask an Afghan citizen, who should become President? They can not answer. Usually they will respond as saying Mullah Omar, who is the current head of the Taliban, if you consider them to still be in operations. Or Ahmed Shah Masood, who many of them wanted to be President in 2003, who was dead. They didnt know, but why?

 

Afghans rarely travel. Many of them have never been 20 or 40 kilometers from their village. On a single run I have almost traveled the 20 kilos. That amazes me. They do not have TV or radio, and rarely have cars. They have villages spread out all over the country, rarely one touching another for miles. So can we change these people and their way of life to support democracy? Is this a feasible task?

 

I honestly think not. But I have been wrong, and will be wrong again. I honestly hope and pray this overachieving military does it once again. But the point of all this was to show that Afghanistan is so much more harder to win than Iraq, and the positives we have now instilled in Iraq may never come to pass in Afghanistan. If you do not support the war in Iraq, and you know the facts of Afghanistan, you can not possibly support this war that President Obama has now laid all the chips on the table for. It is honestly more of a risk than the surge in Iraq was by far, but we hear no outcry.

 

My point of this whole thing was this, we went into Afghanistan so fast and in a rage of fury no one thinks to regret it our complain about it. It would be a slap in the face to the armed forces and the people who lost their lives in 9/11. BUT, if you know the facts of both wars we have been fighting, you would know that the War in Afghanistan is far from over, and far from the state Iraq was in when we started there. If you oppose Iraq, you must oppose both. We will never find Bin Laden. It doesnt matter. What will that prove? Someone will be there to step in and take over where he left. He wasnt even the leader of the Taliban at the time of 9/11.

 

If we want to protect ourselves from terrorism, it will be a long hard battle. Years even. We are not only fighting a war against terror, but against Jihadism. Until Afghans realize the good of a democracy and the US and our allies, our efforts will be futile. I quote a Afghan soldier who drew cheers when he said this "We are all ready to die know because we know we will go to God. That is why they(USA) will never defeat us. That is why their civilation will be destroyed. This is jihad."

 

This is America. And as Americans, we can win, I have no doubt. But its gonna be hard. And if both sides decide to stay in support of Afghanistan, we can win if we devote the time. BUT, if times get rough and either side jumps off board, it will be dang near impossible. If one side sees a campaign victory out of the war, just like the democrats and their media did, they will jump for it I guarantee it. I pray that doesnt happen, or if it does, both sides stay in support. Think before you oppose a war. Obviously all the people who support Obama and his policies including the Afghanistan one while they bash the Iraq strategy, did not.

Edited April 20, 2009 by BEAVERTAIL

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

I honestly hope you all read all of the above post. I thought I knew a lot about the Afghan War but I was wrong until recently.

 

If you want to learn more and I hope you do, pick up Rory Stewart's "The Places In Between." Its around 300 pages but it is a quick read. Rory is a Scottish lad who has walked across primarily the whole middle east. Thats right, walked. And the book is all about his walk across Afghanistan and how he stayed with Afghans every night and walked and talked with them. Quite interesting to say the least, and from a non bias approach completely. Very very good book.

[fieldgeneral 10]

Its rather simple. Fieldgeneral doesnt know what he is talking about when it comes to these wars, and I will explain why. At one point, I didnt either.

 

First off, he takes into example how we can not find Osama Bin Laden. But we did find Sadam Hussein didnt we? There is a main difference in why we can not find Osama, and why we never will. But you have to know the people and the culture of both in order to understand this reasoning.

 

In Iraq, people were being hit with genocide every day. When US forces came, they were relieved. They readily gave information on Sadam Hussien if they understood what it meant to be free. (I know that is a hard thought to swallow). With the insider information and being able to network within Iraq, we found him with relative ease. We had information, and we could use it.

 

Now to Afghanistan, which I have grown fond of understanding and reading about lately. These Afghans, were mostly ruled by the Taliban for most of their lives. If they were not, then they also found Russian influence on their lives. The point is, many of them turn to the Taliban and consider them a main reason for their prosperity. So why would they give up information on the Taliban? Many of the main leaders of the towns/villages when the US came, left the Taliban and became locals and leaders of the towns. They still had the interest of the Taliban at heart. They would hide Bin Laden for anything.

 

But yet we still try to recapture and restructure Afghanistan, which is why Obama called for the "surge" as well as the military did. But I am not sure it can be done. Why? If you ask an Afghan citizen, who should become President? They can not answer. Usually they will respond as saying Mullah Omar, who is the current head of the Taliban, if you consider them to still be in operations. Or Ahmed Shah Masood, who many of them wanted to be President in 2003, who was dead. They didnt know, but why?

 

Afghans rarely travel. Many of them have never been 20 or 40 kilometers from their village. On a single run I have almost traveled the 20 kilos. That amazes me. They do not have TV or radio, and rarely have cars. They have villages spread out all over the country, rarely one touching another for miles. So can we change these people and their way of life to support democracy? Is this a feasible task?

 

I honestly think not. But I have been wrong, and will be wrong again. I honestly hope and pray this overachieving military does it once again. But the point of all this was to show that Afghanistan is so much more harder to win than Iraq, and the positives we have now instilled in Iraq may never come to pass in Afghanistan. If you do not support the war in Iraq, and you know the facts of Afghanistan, you can not possibly support this war that President Obama has now laid all the chips on the table for. It is honestly more of a risk than the surge in Iraq was by far, but we hear no outcry.

 

My point of this whole thing was this, we went into Afghanistan so fast and in a rage of fury no one thinks to regret it our complain about it. It would be a slap in the face to the armed forces and the people who lost their lives in 9/11. BUT, if you know the facts of both wars we have been fighting, you would know that the War in Afghanistan is far from over, and far from the state Iraq was in when we started there. If you oppose Iraq, you must oppose both. We will never find Bin Laden. It doesnt matter. What will that prove? Someone will be there to step in and take over where he left. He wasnt even the leader of the Taliban at the time of 9/11.

 

If we want to protect ourselves from terrorism, it will be a long hard battle. Years even. We are not only fighting a war against terror, but against Jihadism. Until Afghans realize the good of a democracy and the US and our allies, our efforts will be futile. I quote a Afghan soldier who drew cheers when he said this "We are all ready to die know because we know we will go to God. That is why they(USA) will never defeat us. That is why their civilation will be destroyed. This is jihad."

 

This is America. And as Americans, we can win, I have no doubt. But its gonna be hard. And if both sides decide to stay in support of Afghanistan, we can win if we devote the time. BUT, if times get rough and either side jumps off board, it will be dang near impossible. If one side sees a campaign victory out of the war, just like the democrats and their media did, they will jump for it I guarantee it. I pray that doesnt happen, or if it does, both sides stay in support. Think before you oppose a war. Obviously all the people who support Obama and his policies including the Afghanistan one while they bash the Iraq strategy, did not.

 

I enjoyed reading your post. I would like to read the book you mentioned as well. I know about the genocide and the fact that Afghanistan is in a very brittle state. I couldn't imagine the things that have been done to those people. I feel badly for them.

 

I just feel that a lot of people were misled by the WMD business. I feel that we sidetracked when trying to retalliate or bring justice to those responsible for 9-11. I just feel that we could have found Bin Laden if we would have concentrated on Afghanistan. I know we went in there first and are still there, but with a lot fewer soldiers.

Edited April 20, 2009 by fieldgeneral

[Guest BEAVERTAIL]

I enjoyed reading your post. I would like to read the book you mentioned as well. I know about the genocide and the fact that Afghanistan is in a very brittle state. I couldn't imagine the things that have been done to those people. I feel badly for them.

 

I just feel that a lot of people were misled by the WMD business. I feel that we sidetracked when trying to retalliate or bring justice to those responsible for 9-11. I just feel that we could have found Bin Laden if we would have concentrated on Afghanistan. I know we went in there first and are still there, but with a lot fewer soldiers.

 

Thanks.

 

But here is where we seperate our differences, and its why we both fundamentally look at the need for this war.

 

You look for revenge from 9/11. I look for future protection from all terrorist attacks, which is why the WMDs don't bother me. Terrorists may have had access to those, terrorists in Pakistan scare me more as they are a Nuclear Power. Overall though, in my eyes we have succeeded or currently are, in yours we havent, yet, if you mean the capture of the people who committed the 9/11 attacks.

[fieldgeneral 10]

Thanks.

 

But here is where we seperate our differences, and its why we both fundamentally look at the need for this war.

 

You look for revenge from 9/11. I look for future protection from all terrorist attacks, which is why the WMDs don't bother me. Terrorists may have had access to those, terrorists in Pakistan scare me more as they are a Nuclear Power. Overall though, in my eyes we have succeeded or currently are, in yours we havent, yet, if you mean the capture of the people who committed the 9/11 attacks.

 

 

I didn't get to finish my last post, I had to change computers. Anyway, it's not only "revenge." I feel that we must protect our country and that "revenge" is a way of protection. We have to send the message that actions that were taken would not be handled lightly. We want those nations who terrorize others to fear us. I just wished if they wanted to overthrow Saddam, that they would have seized all terror activity in Afghanistan to see if they could capture Bin Laden first. Give the UN enough time and see if we could have a larger coalition rather than having to send our entire military. I know not every American Military personell was in the middle east, but it seemed as if we were spread way too thin. What would have happened if we had a large scale attack on us. I think we have succeeded in the war on terror, at least at home. Abroad has had some victories and accomplished alot. My main gripe was the timing of Iraq. I just felt that it was not where we needed to be at that time. Terrorism is something that unfortunately will be around forever. Piracy is just another form of it that seems to have jumped to the front page as of late. We need countries strong to deter this type of behavior and yes I know Iraq was one that needed to be changed, just not at that time.

 

There are many levels of victory. To me, total victory is what we are looking for. In, job completed, out, HOME! Too many lives were lost.

 

I think we see eye to eye more than we think. We just have some differences in why and how with some of this. For the most part, this post and your last was great. There is no reason to resort to questioning someone's patriotism and what not. I agree I did the same and apologize. I think we both want what's right for the country, just in different ways.