Time is right for Graham; Grundy to shift down

[GMan 3,569]

who will join the SWD?

 

Nobody...

[rvtne216 278]

that sucks....

[thundercloud 179]

They have, but the schools keep voting to stick with 3.

 

It will be tough for that distirct to continue to survive. They need to look at going with some split 1-A/2-AA districts to help cut down on travel. Carroll is a AA school surrond by A schools. The VHSL should look going to four classifications.

 

Just for the sake of debate. To me this is where there should be a numerical divide between each of the divisons. D-2 vs D-3s should be no different than D-3 vs D-4 or

D-1 vs D-2

 

Large D-2 teams should be able to compete with many of D-3s if there was a reasonable divide. In all reality the SW district has been just that for several years, a combination of A and AA and if Richlands hadn't reached the level that it had, Graham '05 '06 and even '07 teams with single A numbers would have been and were in the mix at the top.

The real disparity comes into play when you start talking about a single A D-2 trying to compete with a AA D-4. Which again we have seen the results of that with Graham games vs Christianburg etc.

[Hacker 82]

The problem with that argument is that there is no consistent size in each region as to who is in which division. In some regions, there are schools playing D-2, that would be D-1 in another region and vice versa. What you have seen for years are cases where school like Harrisonburg played as D-3 and won a state championship with an enrollment of 1,100. Had they been in region IV, that would have played as a D-4.

 

Until VHSL sets enrollment sizes for divisions and eliminiates schools playing up, your idea is not workable.

[thundercloud 179]

To me this is where there should be a numerical divide between each of the divisons.

 

That was my arguement.

[thundercloud 179]

The problem with that argument is that there is no consistent size in each region as to who is in which division. In some regions, there are schools playing D-2, that would be D-1 in another region and vice versa. What you have seen for years are cases where school like Harrisonburg played as D-3 and won a state championship with an enrollment of 1,100. Had they been in region IV, that would have played as a D-4.

 

Until VHSL sets enrollment sizes for divisions and eliminiates schools playing up, your idea is not workable.

 

Monticello had 1200 when they played Richlands in '07 State Championship.

 

As far as teams playing up, if that's a decision they make that is their choice.

 

Why wouldn't it be a teams choice if they wanted to play in a District with bigger schools?

[futbolking 766]

Just for the sake of debate. To me this is where there should be a numerical divide between each of the divisons. D-2 vs D-3s should be no different than D-3 vs D-4 or

D-1 vs D-2

 

Large D-2 teams should be able to compete with many of D-3s if there was a reasonable divide. In all reality the SW district has been just that for several years, a combination of A and AA and if Richlands hadn't reached the level that it had, Graham '05 '06 and even '07 teams with single A numbers would have been and were in the mix at the top.

The real disparity comes into play when you start talking about a single A D-2 trying to compete with a AA D-4. Which again we have seen the results of that with Graham games vs Christianburg etc.

 

Hold on a second...Floyd County (D-2) has competed very well against Christiansburg and Bassett...I'm sure there would be several D-2 teams that could do the same....Graham has not been very good the past couple of years...you should be comparing quality teams to quality teams...then I could accept your argument...but to compare a poor D-3 team to a quality D-4 team doesn't work for me.

[Hacker 82]

Hold on a second...Floyd County (D-2) has competed very well against Christiansburg and Bassett...I'm sure there would be several D-2 teams that could do the same....Graham has not been very good the past couple of years...you should be comparing quality teams to quality teams...then I could accept your argument...but to compare a poor D-3 team to a quality D-4 team doesn't work for me.

 

I don't believe anyone was being compared, just citing the fact that the divisional splits vary from region to region and that it creates problems going to a straight split into six groups statewide.

[_______________ 10]

I know Christiansburg had a pretty good year this past year beating Salem and giving Amherst a good game. I know last year Graham almost knocked off Christiansburg in the season opener and we weren't even that great of a team.

[thundercloud 179]

The point is Graham was a D-2 playing up against a D-4, on average your talking about 500 student body vs a 11-1200 student body. While there would be times and teams who might compete with each other, they would far and fewer between just because of the staticial advantage of the larger school if they have good coaching.

 

When the VHSL says Split districts have already been tryed and they didn't work my take is most likely this is what happen.

 

 

At the same time D-2 vs D-3 should be more competeitive because they should be closer in size. Think about it Prog, isn't this what your saying when you compare the SW to the TRD.

 

Something one needs to remember is the lay of the field is constantly changing year to year, so it's very hard to compare year to year, in fact there is no logicial way to compare. Such as: Christiansburg was a D-3 season before last, and are growing. Graham was little weaker on "D" this and last year. But one thing is for certian C-burg is getting bigger while Graham is declining for now.

[futbolking 766]

The point is Graham was a D-2 playing up against a D-4, on average your talking about 500 student body vs a 11-1200 student body. While there would be times and teams who might compete with each other, they would far and fewer between just because of the staticial advantage of the larger school if they have good coaching.

 

When the VHSL says Split districts have already been tryed and they didn't work my take is most likely this is what happen.

 

 

At the same time D-2 vs D-3 should be more competeitive because they should be closer in size. Think about it Prog, isn't this what your saying when you compare the SW to the TRD.

 

Something one needs to remember is the lay of the field is constantly changing year to year, so it's very hard to compare year to year, in fact there is no logicial way to compare. Such as: Christiansburg was a D-3 season before last, and are growing. Graham was little weaker on "D" this and last year. But one thing is for certian C-burg is getting bigger while Graham is declining for now.

 

I see you're point and you're probably right...I just hope Graham rights the ship soon...and can compete with the likes of Radford, Giles, Floyd, Gate City...because I just don't see it happening right now...maybe in a couple of years, if they get the defense straightened out...Who knows, the drop down could be a good thing and encourage more kids to come out....As for now, they certainly won't do any worse than Grayson County who wins the MED every year and gets destroyed in the playoffs.

[bigdaddyg 10]

Ok here it is...I'm going to probably piss some people off right here...but, I'm going to lay it out and break it down for you:

 

my point is that A and AA in this area is already "level"...the lines are blurred...if anyone thinks that by going down to A level this will somehow be a magical turnaround of Grundy's sports progams, then you are all sadly mistaken....you will find out soon enough...going to A now or 5 years ago doesn't really matter...the programs still need to be re-focused and there needs to be a lot of work and commitment done before you will see any success at a regional level, doesn't matter if you are at A or AA...there seems to be this big theory floating around that all of the sudden Grundy is going to drop down and just all of the sudden see this big improvement across the board and it's going to be this big huge benefit to the kids for doing so....I'm here to tell you that other than maybe in wrestling....you are not going to see that...this seems to be what people have been sold and bought in to...it is just NOT going to happen....I'm a Grundy fan to the bone and I probably bleed blue and gold as much as anyone...I grew up in Grundy...my parents still live there...trust me I am one of Grundy's own...I know as well as anyone how things in Buchanan County work...this whole idea that dropping to A level will make Grundy somehow "better" is just not true...what will make Grundy better is for the kids to get off their asses and stop playing Xbox and PS3 and start playing ball...for the people who coach the kids to start giving a damn about the programs and make an effort to better them, and for the parents to stop complaining about anything and everything and support the kids and the coaches....it's a 3 horned monster and they all have to work together...the kids, the parents, and the coaches....until that happens you will never see real success in Grundy or any other place...when you see it come together like it has in Richlands...then you see success...but people don't want to hear that...they don't want to admit Richlands has this sort of thing in place...and notice I have not said anything about Tazewell County...Graham and Tazewell are in the same boat...the reason you don't see success is because the programs have broken down over the past few years...Tazewell has too many hands in the pot, Graham can't get anyone to get past Carlock not being there anymore...it's been gloom and doom since the great coach sadly passed away...Marrs has suffered what I call "Danny White Syndrome"...no matter what he did or has done, the majority of the people there will not give him a fair shake...you can blame the numbers all you want...you can win a weaker district...but once you get beyond that you STILL have to deal with teams that have good programs...teams that are at the A level around here who are just as good as the AA teams.

 

For Grundy...the wrestling team is able to compete at the AA level...they may not be able to win state because C-Burg has just as good or better commitment in their program as Grundy does...they should after all since Grundy pretty much laid the foundation for their program to begin with....Grundy will still have to beat the best teams at A level to win state...but, they can probably do so...all they have done is dodge C-Burg by Grundy moving down...if Grundy can go to a national tourney like Reno and year in and year out be in the top 20 teams out of over 100 top programs from all over the nation at ANY level...that says a lot...and you are telling me that these same outstanding athletes...the very same kids...can't compete in football? Basketball? or whatever? That's bull...the difference is the commitment and the desire to compete at a higher level. If the same money, commitment, and program was in place for the other sports as they have in wrestling you would see the same results.

 

Richlands has that sort of thing going on right now...instead of looking at it and trying to follow it or expand on it, or even acknowledge it...most people just complain or are jealous of it...they say they cheat, or have to use xfr's...or whatever bogus excuse...same thing is said about C-Burg in wrestling..."they recruit kids from all over the world"...I've heard it all...."they don't work as hard as we do"...well, yeah they do...they work just as hard as we work...you can xfr in as many kids as you want...they still have to stand toe to toe and beat a kid that is the same weight on the same mat...it's all about how bad you want it and how much you are willing to work to make yourself the best at what you do....that's what it boils down to...and to be honest, very few have that kind of desire because it's not easy....it's hard...but, even if the kid does have it...there has to be an outlet for it to grow...the wrestling team has that outlet...the other programs really don't...the coaches, the kids, the parents...it's all got to come together for it to work and work well...right now we don't have that...and it's not any one of the three groups thats to blame...you can't single out just one...it all has to come together and they all bare equal weight.

 

Which reminds me....I met an old Negro League Baseball player once named John "Mule" Miles....he told me something that always stuck with me...it's simple, yet says a lot...he told me "Winning is not by mistake, it's how we play the game".

 

So...you can put Grundy or any of these schools at any level you want...you can blame whoever you want and say whatever you want about numbers and how unfair the world is...but, until you actually see the programs change...there will be no change in the results....so don't blame the coaches...the numbers....the kids...or anything else...it's not about that...it's about all the above and the commitment that it takes to win.

 

 

 

 

 

read the rest of the thread in response to the article.

 

So what you are saying and I know I will be corrected....but in a nutshell why not xfr all the kids . Right? Boot all these other homegrown boys that work their a$$ off -- I think you're wrong, the problem is not as much kids and parents but the politics. GHS is the only school that I know that has a sports program that is nationally known and the powers at be has done everything to get rid of it. This is my opinion and no one elses, I know you will disagree (Lance) so let it fly and I know you'll probably lock me out again. But no one has said that dropping to A would be easier in any sport but can you honestly say that when you have a school that has 470 kids competing against schools that have 1200 kids that makes a big difference to choose from. All that's being said that by dropping down put all these kids on an even playing field. But from what I see from what you have posted why not lets just do away with the A, AA and AAA system and have one state champion. Lets put Twin Valley (no disrespect, just an example) up against AAA Power House Colonial Forge. Lets go less than 200 students competing against 2000 students. Now you tell me the smaller school can work their a$$ off all they want and it will not make a difference. There's just too many to choose from and thats the points thats trying to be made.

[futbolking 766]

No offense to you "BigDaddyG"...I understand your point...but i think the point that Lance is trying to make is that these schools can't just expect to have success if they drop down...they're still going to have to work hard and improve...because both of these schools, Grundy and Graham will just be middle of the pack in most sports at best, even at the single A level...(with the exception of Grundy in wrestling and Graham possibly in football)...

 

I agree 100% that the smaller schools can't compete with the larger ones...like you say...way too much talent...however, Graham and Grundy are not guaranteed success in single A.

 

I do think the drop in classification will encourage more kids to come out for the secondary sports, because the kids will feel like they may have a shot at winning, if they work hard at it.

Edited February 7, 2010 by futbolking

[Blues Man 48]

So what you are saying and I know I will be corrected....but in a nutshell why not xfr all the kids . Right? Boot all these other homegrown boys that work their a$$ off -- I think you're wrong, the problem is not as much kids and parents but the politics. GHS is the only school that I know that has a sports program that is nationally known and the powers at be has done everything to get rid of it. This is my opinion and no one elses, I know you will disagree (Lance) so let it fly and I know you'll probably lock me out again. But no one has said that dropping to A would be easier in any sport but can you honestly say that when you have a school that has 470 kids competing against schools that have 1200 kids that makes a big difference to choose from. All that's being said that by dropping down put all these kids on an even playing field. But from what I see from what you have posted why not lets just do away with the A, AA and AAA system and have one state champion. Lets put Twin Valley (no disrespect, just an example) up against AAA Power House Colonial Forge. Lets go less than 200 students competing against 2000 students. Now you tell me the smaller school can work their a$$ off all they want and it will not make a difference. There's just too many to choose from and thats the points thats trying to be made.

 

BigdaddyG read pargraph 3 in Lance"s post it sounds to me that you are a good example of what he is talking about.