Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 In a seven game series, the '12 team might win 2. I would pick the dream team in 6. I like this prediction. Again, it's not the "THEY'D BLOW 'EM OFF THE COURT!!!" that the media wants us to believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Kobe's already in MJ territory, and as much as people here are going to laugh, it's absolutely true. 1. MJ's 3rd in points. Kobe's 5th, and will pass MJ in the 2013-2014 season if he stays healthy. 2. MJ's PPG average was 30.1, and Kobe's is 25.4. MJ was a black hole for his entire career, while Kobe had to live with/endure Shaq for the first 40% of his career. 3. MJ has 6 rings. Kobe has 5, but has been to 7 Finals. Rings speak, folks. 4. Kobe's prima-donna attitude is just a more defensible version of MJ's. For a great, impartial read that makes Michael Jordan look like a terrible person, read "The Jordan Rules". If Jordan hadn't been such a horrible teammate, he'd have won the title in '89-'90 and possibly '88-'89. He submarined those teams for riding them, particularly Scottie Pippen, much too hard. For a greater idea on who MJ was, just listen to that HOF acceptance speech again. THAT is the true MJ. 5. Kobe didn't forfeit two titles due to an 18-month suspension for illicit gambling like MJ did. The ONLY reason that Kobe isn't on a similar par with MJ is that the media vilifies athletes more in the 2000s/2010s than in the 1990s. The media wasn't sufficiently jaded yet. Now, it is. No athlete will ever again earn the disproportionately good press Jordan did. Jordan is better than Kobe, but it's SCARY close. If Kobe wins 2 more titles, he's better. Period. Kobe's a rapist...can't pull for him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Kobe's already in MJ territory, and as much as people here are going to laugh, it's absolutely true. 1. MJ's 3rd in points. Kobe's 5th, and will pass MJ in the 2013-2014 season if he stays healthy. 2. MJ's PPG average was 30.1, and Kobe's is 25.4. MJ was a black hole for his entire career, while Kobe had to live with/endure Shaq for the first 40% of his career. Kobe is playing in a time where teams don't play defense. MJ played when teams DID play defense...Kobe can't hold MJ's jock...Kobe has bacon collar... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Kobe's a rapist...can't pull for him... I don't like him, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Kobe is playing in a time where teams don't play defense. MJ played when teams DID play defense...Kobe can't hold MJ's jock...Kobe has bacon collar... Well, if you want to use that logic, Kobe's playing in a time where teams have 11-12 fewer possessions per game than they did in MJ's time. Considering that MJ's career FG percentage is 49.6%, and that Kobe's is 45.3%, you'd think that would account for 4-5 extra shots and 4-5 extra points/game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance 228 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 The thing about Jordan is that he was good on both sides of the ball...he could do it all...from the last second shot to win the game or a no look dish to someone else with a better look at the last second to win the game...he could get the steal, run the O, block shots, get rebounds off the boards...dude could do it all and then sell you a nice pair of shoes and make a movie with Bugs Bunny in the off season. Jordan was a Legend...you can't measure a Legend by stats...it's impossible. Babe Ruth might not be the HR King anymore...but, Barry Bonds will never be The Babe...same thing with Jordan. Was he perfect off the court? no...but Jordan built his name in to brand and an empire....Kobe doesn't and will never have that sort of power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHS03 99 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Kobe is probably more like a cheater and not a rapist. I'm no Kobe fan but odds are that girl willingly did everything with him just with the intention to cry out rape and earn lots of money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 The thing about Jordan is that he was good on both sides of the ball...he could do it all...from the last second shot to win the game or a no look dish to someone else with a better look at the last second to win the game...he could get the steal, run the O, block shots, get rebounds off the boards...dude could do it all and then sell you a nice pair of shoes and make a movie with Bugs Bunny in the off season. Jordan was a Legend...you can't measure a Legend by stats...it's impossible. Babe Ruth might not be the HR King anymore...but, Barry Bonds will never be The Babe...same thing with Jordan. Was he perfect off the court? no...but Jordan built his name in to brand and an empire....Kobe doesn't and will never have that sort of power. One of my minor points is that the media of the 90s actively built Michael Jordan into a superstar, whereas the media post-1998 actively works to destruct athletes. The media heaped praise on Jordan (some claim the best individual performance ever) for taking 41 of 102 shots in that 63-point game (54% FG for MJ) in Boston Garden (that Chicago lost)*. However, the media crucifies Kobe for taking 46 of 88 shots** (61 FG% for Kobe) in his 81-point game against Toronto (that LA won). Here's some more examples: 1a. Michael derides his teammates to the point where they can't perform in games. 1b. "Michael's just a fierce competitior/warrior!" 2a. Michael is an abrasive dick to reporters. 2b. "Michael's earned the right, he's the greatest ever". 3a. Michael gambles away millions upon millions of dollars illegally. 3b. "It's Michael's money, he can do what he wants". vs. 4a. Kobe reaches a settlement in his sexual assault civil trial. 4b. "HE'S A RAPIST AND A CHEATER!!! BAN HIM FOR A YEAR!!!" 5a. Kobe takes too many shots. 5b. "WHAT A HORRIBLE TEAMMATE!!!" 6a. Kobe cannot exist with Shaq. 6b. "IT'S KOBE'S FAULT!!!" Double. Standard. Michael gets to live off the media favoritism for the rest of his life, and Kobe gets nothing. It doesn't mean that one is a better player than the other. *I'm also TOTALLY discounting that Orlando Woolridge jacked up an unconscionable 27 shots (made 9 for 33%), for which I'm sure that Jordan beat him with a cat-o-nine-tails after the game. **And as I said earlier, games average 10-12 fewer possessions now than when Jordan played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Kobe is probably more like a cheater and not a rapist. I'm no Kobe fan but odds are that girl willingly did everything with him just with the intention to cry out rape and earn lots of money. I wasn't in the room, so I can't say for sure. But from my experience, if you're very sure of your case, you aren't doing everything short of sending a nude Kate Upton with a settlement offer. It should also be noted that the girl refused to testify in the criminal case, which of course is a Fourth Amendment violation. Case obviously dismissed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance 228 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 i watched the 63 point game...my opinion on it, Jordan was trying to win the game. I didn't see the Kobe game live, but I've since seen it on NBA Replay...and my opinion, Kobe was trying to score as much as he could for his own benefit...I think he just wanted to make a run at the magical 100 point mark. Not that it's a bad thing, hell who wouldn't want to take a shot at the 100 point mark...but I think that is exactly what gets him labeled as selfish and a ball hog. double standard? sure...why not? I'll go along with you on that....but, end of the day...Jordan is a Legend, Kobe is a HOF'er...huge difference in the two. Another thing, everything you see is paid for...covers of magazines, whats on the end of the isle at Walmart...everything and anything you see dealing with a product has money behind it. As the "press" is central to the advertising provided by the media that employ the reporters, and given the power of Nike and other endorsements that Jordan had from the mid 80's through the end of the 90's and even somewhat in to today...I'm sure it didn't hurt him when it came to dealing with the press...back then it was easier without the internet to control the "press"...now, word just spreads too fast. If you pissed Nike off in the late 80s and they were one of your biggest sources of ad revenue, then you could be looking at hard times. At the end of the day though...what you have is: Jordan: Legend, Mythical Creature Kobe: HOF'er Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCFan 10 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Any thoughts on USA vs. Brazil exhibition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Any thoughts on USA vs. Brazil exhibition? Yeh, the US women absolutely dominated the ladies from Brazil... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend11 32 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Any thoughts on USA vs. Brazil exhibition? Simply disgraceful. The '92 team would have beat Brazil 436-4 (give or take), despite Brazil having four NBA starters on their roster. Never mind the fact that the '92 team never faced a team with more than two NBA players during their run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Simply disgraceful. The '92 team would have beat Brazil 436-4 (give or take), despite Brazil having four NBA starters on their roster. Never mind the fact that the '92 team never faced a team with more than two NBA players during their run. The bolded part is the most underrated part about the '92 experience. Like the Angola game, for example. The Angolan starters might start...on a D-II team. The Dream Team would've probably beaten Brazil by 20-25. I'm going on the fact that Croatia, the team that had the 2 NBA players of which you speak, lost by 32, and Brazil is a fair bit deeper than that Croatia team. It's amazing how far basketball has come. This Brazil team would probably be a silver medal team in '92. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GMan 3,569 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Seriously, why is there even a discussion comparing '92 and '12...results speak louder than words... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_States_men's_Olympic_basketball_team The Dream Team played 14 games vs. world competition and won all 14, outscoring opponents by 118.93-71.86 per game, a winning margin of over 47 points/game... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Seriously, why is there even a discussion comparing '92 and '12...results speak louder than words... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_United_States_men's_Olympic_basketball_team The Dream Team played 14 games vs. world competition and won all 14, outscoring opponents by 118.93-71.86 per game, a winning margin of over 47 points/game... Never mind the fact that the '92 team never faced a team with more than two NBA players during their run. This. Your point would be valid IF the level of competition was equal, and it's clearly not. For example, if you brought Phoebus out to SWVA, they'd be knocking our little butts off the field like Andre the Giant in his heyday. Put them against better competition, and they're good...but not AS good. But it's a good discussion. It's one we also wouldn't be having if (1) John Thompson, the most overrated coach in college basketball history, hadn't made indefensibly stupid roster decisions that pretty much gift-wrapped the medal for the Soviets and (2) Arvydas Sabonis wasn't one of the 5 best players in the world at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrywave 10 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 I watched the 92' team as much as was humanly possible that summer on tv. And people really dont understand how good they were unless they saw it then. The Croatia team that they played had 4 or 5 nba players (Think 2012 Brazilian Team) on it and the 92' team beat them by over 30 points both games including the Gold medal game. Croatia had Drazen Petrovic that played for the Nets, Toni Kukoc whiched played for the Bulls afterwards, Dino Raja which played for the Celtics during that time, and a couple other 7'0 tall bohemoths that played in the NBA. Wikeopedia the 1992 Croatian Squad and see how good they were. To say it would be a close game with the 2012 squad would be a joke. 92' team by 15-20 points 90% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 I watched the 92' team as much as was humanly possible that summer on tv. And people really dont understand how good they were unless they saw it then. The Croatia team that they played had 4 or 5 nba players (Think 2012 Brazilian Team) on it and the 92' team beat them by over 30 points both games including the Gold medal game. Croatia had Drazen Petrovic that played for the Nets, Toni Kukoc whiched played for the Bulls afterwards, Dino Raja which played for the Celtics during that time, and a couple other 7'0 tall bohemoths that played in the NBA. Wikeopedia the 1992 Croatian Squad and see how good they were. To say it would be a close game with the 2012 squad would be a joke. 92' team by 15-20 points 90% of the time. Dino Radja, though drafted by the Celtics in 1989, he didn't play with the Celtics until 1993. He washed out in the NBA, partly because he wasn't very good, mostly because his training regimen consisted of drinking and chain smoking. That's not far from the truth, either. Look it up. Toni Kukoc was an interesting case. Jerry Reinsdorf, the bumbling oaf he was, saw Kukoc as the "player of the future", which is reprehensibly idiotic considering you had the best player ever to suit up and a top-5 all-time defensive stopper on the same team. Just to show how good Kukoc was when he started running the show, he couldn't average within 10 points of Jordan and led the Bulls to an a conference-worst 13-37 mark. Petrovic's story is so sad that you almost want to cry. He performed very admirably in carrying a pathetic Nets team through the early 90s. Inarguably, he was the best player on that '92 Croatia team, and it wasn't close. Petrovic would be the only player then who might crack the '12 team. While better than Christian Floppner, he wouldn't have made the '92 team were he born in the U.S. In the land of the blind, the person with 20/400 is king. That was Croatia '92: king of countries that didn't play orange roundball so well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
countrywave 10 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 Didnt mean for it to come out like I was comparing the 2012 US team and 92 Croatia team. Of course the 2012 US team would beat the Croatian team. Its just the fact that Croatia had NBA talent and for that time which was the best era for the NBA, i think that means alot. The game now has changed how it is played mainly because the lack of dominating centers in the NBA. The game is more athletic, fast paced, and spread out with one on one matchups off the dribble being dominate. The 92' team had dominating big guys and still put up 120+ points a game (because if you tried to stop the post up game then they would kick it out for a 3). In 1992, team oriented basketball was dominate. Now all haters are going to say that the rest of the world was not that good in 92'. That might be true to a point but maybe the Dream Team just made them look that bad. Until the 2012 team has as many HOF'ers on it i wont ever change my mind. Think about the NBA titles the 92' dream team had after they all retired. These were men that knew how to win by not playing selfish when they needed too. Which is a trait I dont see in the 2012 US team. Nontheless, I am still pulling for them to win the gold. Its great we get to debate these type of things. Sure doesnt happen in soccer. U S A!!! U S A!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCFan 10 Report Share Posted July 18, 2012 1992 Dream Team = 11 Hall of Famers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 Didnt mean for it to come out like I was comparing the 2012 US team and 92 Croatia team. Of course the 2012 US team would beat the Croatian team. Its just the fact that Croatia had NBA talent and for that time which was the best era for the NBA, i think that means alot. The game now has changed how it is played mainly because the lack of dominating centers in the NBA. The game is more athletic, fast paced, and spread out with one on one matchups off the dribble being dominate. The 92' team had dominating big guys and still put up 120+ points a game (because if you tried to stop the post up game then they would kick it out for a 3). In 1992, team oriented basketball was dominate. Now all haters are going to say that the rest of the world was not that good in 92'. That might be true to a point but maybe the Dream Team just made them look that bad. Until the 2012 team has as many HOF'ers on it i wont ever change my mind. Think about the NBA titles the 92' dream team had after they all retired. These were men that knew how to win by not playing selfish when they needed too. Which is a trait I dont see in the 2012 US team. Nontheless, I am still pulling for them to win the gold. Its great we get to debate these type of things. Sure doesnt happen in soccer. U S A!!! U S A!!! I only compared '92 Croatia to '12 USA to illustrate that Petrovic was the only player on the '92 Croatia squad that would have a chance of cracking the '12 USA squad. He was a more complete player than Blake Griffin, and would've taken that spot. That's where the comparison ends, because there is no comparison otherwise between the talent levels. '12 USA would win 99 of 100 games against '92 Croatia. Your second paragraph seems contradictory to me. You claim there's a lack of dominating centers. Would it serve to reason, then, that if there was a lack of dominating centers, that you'd see more drive-and-dish inside than slash-and-kick? That's pretty much how the non-US teams play the game: being deadly with slash-and-kick. THAT is the biggest difference in how the game is played now and then, and it's because the interior defense is much more improved. Those teams now put a premium on distance shooting. Only the Soviets saw it pre-1992, but again, the Soviet Union crumbled just 2 years before and Sabonis was walking like Frankenstein... There are multiple reasons that the U.S. put up so many points. One, because there was virtually no talent on the floor outside a couple guys from Croatia. Two, because when teams would get down by 10-15 (Angola, etc.), they'd start running a haphazard Loyola Marymount offense, and would fail miserably at it. Three, because contrary to your assertion, there wasn't a whole lot of team-centered (read: help defense) basketball going on; look to 2000 onward to see this develop. I'm not hating on the U.S. May they win gold. It has been a fun discussion. :) 1992 Dream Team = 11 Hall of Famers. Can't really use that as a metric, when all those guys have long since retired and these guys aren't eligible until they retire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCFan 10 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 How about the 96 and 00 teams? Nobody in the NBA or the world could stop Shaq at that time. I would put those squads ahead of 2012 as well. Your thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legend11 32 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 How about the 96 and 00 teams? Nobody in the NBA or the world could stop Shaq at that time. I would put those squads ahead of 2012 as well. Your thoughts? HA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 How about the 96 and 00 teams? Nobody in the NBA or the world could stop Shaq at that time. I would put those squads ahead of 2012 as well. Your thoughts? The only center on the planet that could stop Shaq was Hakeem, and they were on the same team. People forget just how good Olajuwon was. Best fundamentally sound center who has ever, or may ever, play the game. Not performance best, but fundamentally best. '96 was a mirror image of '92, except with a little less star power (Jordan). The opposing rosters weren't any better, either. I mean, Yugoslavia had three active NBA players (Vlade Divac, Predrag Danilovic, Aleksandar Dordevic) on its roster, and the only one that was anything more than a practice dummy was Divac. Others (Zeljko Rebraca, Zarko Paspalj) were in the NBA before and after, but again were little more than scout team players. '00 wasn't anywhere close to the caliber of the '96 or '92 teams. Shareef Abdur-Rahim? The only memorable thing about the 2000 team aside from the gold medal was Vince Carter's dunk on Frederic Weis (which says something about his career, that this was his defining moment, when he had the talent he did). The closest game was a 9-point win in the opening rounds against Lithuania. It was in '98 onward that the rest of the world started putting a value on perimeter shooting and slash-and-kick. I'd put '12 a mile ahead of '00. I'd put '12 on par with '96, simply because many of the guns in '96 were starting the backside of their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThomasDenton 79 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2012 On the topic of past legends, Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman are still showing their stuff in Asia: http://dimemag.com/2012/07/video-jason-williams-dennis-rodman-scottie-pippen-show-out-in-the-philippines/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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