deuceswild 15 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Obama doesn't believe in Santa Claus either, which is silly if you ask me because Santa is mentioned in all kinds of songs and stuff and our founders believed in Santa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurricaneWarning 212 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Just when I thought you couldn't be any more ignorant you had to go and say something like that. The proof is out there, you just have to take off the glasses to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucfan64 309 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Just because they did something a long time ago, doesnt mean it was right. Do we also forget that this country was found on the work of slaves? I guess if the founders did it, we should still be doing it. Obama doesn't believe in Santa Claus either, which is silly if you ask me because Santa is mentioned in all kinds of songs and stuff and our founders believed in Santa. Both of you are missing the point of the post. My point is to contest this notion that America was not founded on Godly principles. When people argue that America did not have a Godly heritage, they are denying the simple foundational truths upon which this nation was founded! You may disagree with the Founders, you may not believe in God, you might even believe in Santa Claus, ......you are entitled to that right, but DO NOT attempt to sell me or anyone else a bill of goods that does not accurately reflect the simple truths of our nations founding! This is all that I am saying! I am in no way whatsoever attempting to force people to embrace religion nor am I endorsing a theocracy! The Founders were far from perfect, but I would much rather follow their formula of individual liberty than the collectivist formula that is being promoted by so many politicians today. I have no problem comparing apples and oranges...... True, the Founders did own slaves, I am not even going to go into this again, it is and was a gaping wound on our national heritage. However, many of todays leaders have the blood of innocent unborn children on their hands, so there really isn't a need to prop them up either! Santa Claus? Really? I see the sarcasm in your comment, however you are missing the point, I am propping up the system that was established, not the flawed men who created that system. I have reverential respect for the Founders, but I have more confidence in the system that they helped create and the prosperity to which they entrusted it. Nothing more, nothing less! Edited September 7, 2012 by bucfan64 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trublue 939 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Obama doesn't believe in Santa Claus either, which is silly if you ask me because Santa is mentioned in all kinds of songs and stuff and our founders believed in Santa. Pshaw...he not only believes in Santa...HE is SANTA! Okay...boys and girls..."gift giving" is not only for December...it's gonna be YEAR round...money is "NOOOO object." :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucfan64 309 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 pshaw...he not only believes in santa...he is santa! Okay...boys and girls..."gift giving" is not only for december...it's gonna be year round...money is "noooo object." :d +100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixcat 2,934 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) When did religious affiliation become a defining characteristic of party affiliation? Not a smartass question, just curious. Jimmy Carter is a democrat and a preacher. Edited September 7, 2012 by sixcat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deuceswild 15 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Both of you are missing the point of the post. My point is to contest this notion that America was not founded on Godly principles. When people argue that America did not have a Godly heritage, they are denying the simple foundational truths upon which this nation was founded! You may disagree with the Founders, you may not believe in God, you might even believe in Santa Claus, ......you are entitled to that right, but DO NOT attempt to sell me or anyone else a bill of goods that does not accurately reflect the simple truths of our nations founding! This is all that I am saying! I am in no way whatsoever attempting to force people to embrace religion nor am I endorsing a theocracy! The Founders were far from perfect, but I would much rather follow their formula of individual liberty than the collectivist formula that is being promoted by so many politicians today. I have no problem comparing apples and oranges...... True, the Founders did own slaves, I am not even going to go into this again, it is and was a gaping wound on our national heritage. However, many of todays leaders have the blood of innocent unborn children on their hands, so there really isn't a need to prop them up either! Santa Claus? Really? I see the sarcasm in your comment, however you are missing the point, I am propping up the system that was established, not the flawed men who created that system. I have reverential respect for the Founders, but I have more confidence in the system that they helped create and the prosperity to which they entrusted it. Nothing more, nothing less! My statement wasn't directed toward you. It was for the other posters who want to elect God and not a president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlueAlum 12 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Both of you are missing the point of the post. My point is to contest this notion that America was not founded on Godly principles. When people argue that America did not have a Godly heritage, they are denying the simple foundational truths upon which this nation was founded! You may disagree with the Founders, you may not believe in God, you might even believe in Santa Claus, ......you are entitled to that right, but DO NOT attempt to sell me or anyone else a bill of goods that does not accurately reflect the simple truths of our nations founding! This is all that I am saying! I am in no way whatsoever attempting to force people to embrace religion nor am I endorsing a theocracy! The Founders were far from perfect, but I would much rather follow their formula of individual liberty than the collectivist formula that is being promoted by so many politicians today. I have no problem comparing apples and oranges...... True, the Founders did own slaves, I am not even going to go into this again, it is and was a gaping wound on our national heritage. However, many of todays leaders have the blood of innocent unborn children on their hands, so there really isn't a need to prop them up either! Santa Claus? Really? I see the sarcasm in your comment, however you are missing the point, I am propping up the system that was established, not the flawed men who created that system. I have reverential respect for the Founders, but I have more confidence in the system that they helped create and the prosperity to which they entrusted it. Nothing more, nothing less! My point was that the founders did several things that seem to contridict the exact principles that they set in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Way to throw up the abortion issue, since it has nothing to do with this conversation about the founders. Actually, I would be interested to know their stance on abortion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlueAlum 12 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 The proof is out there, you just have to take off the glasses to see it. How am I supposed to read it if I take off my glasses? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deuceswild 15 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 How am I supposed to read it if I take off my glasses? Cover your ears too. It's the best way to watch FoxNews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 When did religious affiliation become a defining characteristic of party affiliation? Not a smartass question, just curious. Jimmy Carter is a democrat and a preacher. I don't think it's a defining characteristic, but I think it's fairly clear that people who identify as atheist are more likely to be on one side of the political aisle as opposed to the other (and that's only weaker because some are more prone to identify as Libertarians). I think what underlies this is the mistaken belief that the Democrat Party is somehow the more enlightened, "hip" party. Many atheists I've encountered have had an overly grandiose belief of their intellectual superiority as compared to those who adhere to a religion. Not all, mind you, but enough to where I feel comfortable saying this with a reasonable degree of certainty. Put another way. If you're a novelist, where are you more prone to spend your time? The Algonquin or a Toby Keith concert? People yearn for acceptance, and the liberal framework vis-a-vis the Democrat Party is more appealing to the people I've listed above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 How am I supposed to read it if I take off my glasses? You don't read with your eyes. You read with your HEART. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlueAlum 12 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) I don't think it's a defining characteristic, but I think it's fairly clear that people who identify as atheist are more likely to be on one side of the political aisle as opposed to the other (and that's only weaker because some are more prone to identify as Libertarians). I think what underlies this is the mistaken belief that the Democrat Party is somehow the more enlightened, "hip" party. Many atheists I've encountered have had an overly grandiose belief of their intellectual superiority as compared to those who adhere to a religion. Not all, mind you, but enough to where I feel comfortable saying this with a reasonable degree of certainty. Put another way. If you're a novelist, where are you more prone to spend your time? The Algonquin or a Toby Keith concert? People yearn for acceptance, and the liberal framework vis-a-vis the Democrat Party is more appealing to the people I've listed above. Actually, one of the only atheists that I know is a Repulbican. Checkmate, republicans! And doesn't most everyone have a feeling of intellectual superiority when it comes to religious beliefs? Anyone that has an opinion on religion think that they have the correct answer and everyone else is wrong. Religion sort of hinges on you being right, and everyone else being wrong. Edited September 7, 2012 by BigBlueAlum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBlueAlum 12 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 You don't read with your eyes. You read with your HEART. But I'm a heartless, baby-killing liberal...what do I do now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Actually, one of the only atheists that I know is a Repulbican. Checkmate, republicans! And doesn't most everyone have a feeling of intellectual superiority when it comes to religious beliefs? Anyone that has an opinion on religion think that they have the correct answer and everyone else is wrong. Religion sort of hinges on you being right, and everyone else being wrong. I think there's a difference between (1) "I'm smarter than you for believing X" than (2) "X view is the correct view". Many of my experiences come from one of my 4th-year roommates and the friends he'd bring over. They were lockstep in view #1. It was as if they had some chip on their shoulder to prove some sort of mental superiority (many were raised in Christian homes and held more than a smidge of animosity about it). You're exactly right, though. Holding a meaningful religious view inherently implies that every other one is wrong at least in some material aspect. But that's in regard to just one point of view, though. With many (and again, not all) atheists I've met, it goes beyond a mere "agree to disagree on religion" sort of thing. And speaking of bucking the trend, my closest homosexual friend is as Republican as you'll ever find. A good lesson never to pigeonhole an entire group of people based upon one thing. Edited September 7, 2012 by UVAObserver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 But I'm a heartless, baby-killing liberal...what do I do now? Listen to radio. I hear AM 1470 has some good midday coverage that would appeal to you. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandman 13 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 "If we ever forget that this republic is one nation under God, then we wil be a nation gone under." --- Ronald Wilson Reagan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bucfan64 309 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 You don't read with your eyes. You read with your HEART. Preach On! Well Said! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mavsgrad 28 Author Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Pshaw...he not only believes in Santa...HE is SANTA! Okay...boys and girls..."gift giving" is not only for December...it's gonna be YEAR round...money is "NOOOO object." :D trublue, you nailed it my friend lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtiger 1,742 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 America does have a strong Godly Christian heritage but the founders did not openly proclaim Christanity as THE American way. Unlike other major issues such as slavery or womens rights where the founders hands were tied, they could have brought christanity more into the fold(the vast majority of Americans were christians of one type or another), they chose not to. Being based on Godly principles is very different than intertwining Christanity into the political system. The founders wanted to avoid a Theocracy(one of many paths to tyrrany), thats why the ultra-religious, neo-theocracies of New England had to remove religion from their state governments. Natural Law and the Laws of Nature do point to a supreme being(a god) but not directly to the Christian God. If the Founders had wanted to say God they would have, they choose not to. To say that "well, they really meant God" is a streach imo and is no more than twisting their words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandman 13 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Whenever questions about the direction this country needs to trend toward in the purpose of government in its relation to the citizens, I always look toward the founders for guidence, and I found this little gem, George Washington's first Thankgiving Proclamation. General Thanksgiving By the PRESIDENT of the United States Of America A PROCLAMATION WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANKSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:" NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and assign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed;-- for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish Constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;-- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge;-- and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us. And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions;-- to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best. GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine. (signed) G. Washington Gentlemen, if the men who founded this nation were of the attitude that the Almighty does have a place in the public sphere, then that's good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BHS03 99 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 I think that we can all agree that Obama is a terrible President. My dad is a lifelong democrat who will be voting Republican for the first time in his life this November. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixcat 2,934 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 I don't think it's a defining characteristic, but I think it's fairly clear that people who identify as atheist are more likely to be on one side of the political aisle as opposed to the other (and that's only weaker because some are more prone to identify as Libertarians). I think what underlies this is the mistaken belief that the Democrat Party is somehow the more enlightened, "hip" party. Many atheists I've encountered have had an overly grandiose belief of their intellectual superiority as compared to those who adhere to a religion. Not all, mind you, but enough to where I feel comfortable saying this with a reasonable degree of certainty. Put another way. If you're a novelist, where are you more prone to spend your time? The Algonquin or a Toby Keith concert? People yearn for acceptance, and the liberal framework vis-a-vis the Democrat Party is more appealing to the people I've listed above. Thanks, I'm not sure anyone would rationally declare Jimmy Carter as having intellectual superiority. I have only met two atheists who would admit to being atheist. Both shared the characteristic you mention and loved telling anyone within earshot their stance. I have never had an interest in politics outside of my community or religious politics of any kind until my wife began a career that requires her to be somewhat involved in politics at the state level. I am playing catch-up and like to read differing opinions from all sides to shape my own views. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deuceswild 15 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Thanks, I'm not sure anyone would rationally declare Jimmy Carter as having intellectual superiority. I have only met two atheists who would admit to being atheist. Both shared the characteristic you mention and loved telling anyone within earshot their stance. I have never had an interest in politics outside of my community or religious politics of any kind until my wife began a career that requires her to be somewhat involved in politics at the state level. I am playing catch-up and like to read differing opinions from all sides to shape my own views. I'll agree that of the atheist I know, a number of them are this way. But I know just as many Christians who love radiating their stance within earshot whether or not it's welcomed. Bottom line is, everyone is right in their own minds despite how blind it makes them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redtiger 1,742 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 (edited) Thats a wonderful quote and speaks to the Christian tradition of America, but its still not including christianity in formal government/political policy. and BHS03, yes most of us can agree on that Edited September 7, 2012 by redtiger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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