BHC article: SWVA football decline

[sup_rbeast 296]

When Administrators attempt to push experienced coaches out (who still work in the school system) only to replace them with folks who don't know beans about the sport, there is a problem.  When you have principals undermining coaches just to prove a point, there is a problem. And he's shooting you straight...during his last 5-6 years at PV, he had both problems.

[redtiger 1,740]

Those are definately not good situations. In the article he is applying his own personal situation/issues to all of SWVA.   Kind of a pointless article imo, unless ofcourse the point is to get people talking. It certainly has done that.

[cwood78 161]

It's nothing else other than kids now are lazy. All the huge kids are walking the halls, playing call of duty, and eating chips. You wouldn't believe the kids who could be D1 prospects that walk the halls at all these high schools.

yep  when i was in school, there was some monsters who just didn't have interest, its the same now......

[sup_rbeast 296]

Those are definately not good situations. In the article he is applying his own personal situation/issues to all of SWVA.   Kind of a pointless article imo, unless ofcourse the point is to get people talking. It certainly has done that.

The Bristol Herald Courier seems to have an article relating to him, PV, or quoting him every month or so for some reason.

[cwood78 161]

somebody on their staff, must have a connection...........

[jblank 39]

 

The facts don't back up your assertion.

 

Since the new millenium, only 3 teams from Region IV made the Division 3 title game: Graham (2001), Richlands (2005, 2006, 2007, 2010), and Northside (2009).  Northside is from outside SWVA.  Graham's and Richlands's record is 1-4.  In 12 years, you had had 1 SWVA Champion of Division 3.  But for a blocked field goal, that number's 0. 

 

Since the new millenium, the following teams from the West made the Division 2 title game: Floyd County (2001, 2008), George Wythe (2002), Gate City (2003, 2007, 2010), Powell Valley (2004), Giles (2005, 2006), Gretna (2007, 2008, 2010, 2011), and Radford (2009).  Gretna is from outside SWVA.  Gretna has a 3-1 mark in the Division 2 title game.  Everyone else is 4-6, with Gate City responsible for 2 of those wins.

 

Since the new millenium, the following teams from the West made the Division 1 title game: Bath County (2001, 2003), Appalachia (2002), J.I. Burton (2004, 2005, 2006, 2009), Clintwood (2007, 2008, 2011), Eastern Montgomery (2010), Galax (2011), George Wythe (2012), Honaker (2012).  Bath County is from outside SWVA, and Eastern Montgomery is arguable, but I will include them for discussion's sake.  SWVA teams are 2-9, and that's mainly because a SWVA team had to win, because it was West #1 v. West #2.  Setting those games aside, SWVA teams are 0-7 against the East.  The damning statistic is that a SWVA team did not even SCORE in the Division 1 title game until 2006.  The East outscored SWVA 316-115 in those 7 games, including the 70-0 massacre Appalachia suffered.

 

In the best possible light, you have a very select few from SWVA being even passable at a state level.  If you're keeping count, exactly TWO teams from SWVA have won multiple state titles in this millenium: George Wythe (2002, 2012...ten years apart even then) and Gate City (2003, 2010...seven years apart).  Richlands got there four times, but was very underwhelming in all 4 (and yes, I'm counting that 29-28 win in 2006 against a 9-5 team underwhelming).  J.I. Burton got Ivan Drago'd four times. 

 

Interesting information, but keep in mind, it could also be that the other teams are just getting better. If SWVA football stays roughly the same, as far as talent and other factors go, it could be that the other schools, which are actually growing in size, are just getting better. Like I said, I've been watching HS Football for a long time, and my eyes don't tell me that the talent level is worse now than it was ten years ago, or twenty one years ago even, when I graduated.

[redtiger 1,740]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuopQrqWO4A

 

MY GOD! look at the size of those Vikings!  They must all be 6'5" and 275lbs! 

[Beamerball 566]

May not be big as you see now, but really good and very tough.

[redtiger 1,740]

Oh I know it, but in the article  Robbins said players now are smaller. Size seems to be similar then and now imo.  No doubt about the toughness and skill level of players from SWVA in the 90s, especially the PV players.

[HurricaneWarning 212]

I can't remember, what division was Marion in back in 2001 when we won the region championship? I was thinking we were division three then but we must have been division four since Graham won the three that year.

[Beamerball 566]

Div. 4

http://www.cougarfootball.net/season/2001/d4playoffs.htm

[Plywood_King 518]

I can't remember, what division was Marion in back in 2001 when we won the region championship? I was thinking we were division three then but we must have been division four since Graham won the three that year.

D4. A very small D4 school, but D4 nonetheless. They had 814 students, making Bassett, Fieldale-Collinsville, Carroll County, Lee, and Magna Vista the only D4 schools that were smaller. 

 

I actually chuckled a little bit when I realized that Marion had 814 students twelve years ago. I guess that only reiterates the whole point of "declining population."

[redtiger 1,740]

Marion has lost what, 25% of its enrollment in just over a decade?

[Plywood_King 518]

Marion has lost what, 25% of its enrollment in just over a decade?

Pretty close. They were around 685 enrollment the last time I checked, meaning that if we were under the old classificaion system, they would have dropped from D4 to D2 in eight years time.

[cityofRaven 2,444]

Richlands last year in D4 and we lost to eventual state champ Salem in the semis. We were in the 800 student range then. During the 90's both Richlands and Grundy both had around 1,000 students. I think the population decline has the most to do with it but they are more underling factors going into all of this.

[redtiger 1,740]

Didn't Gretna drop from D4 to D2 pretty quickly?

 

The decline in Buchannon Co has been the most startling imo. like Raven said Grundy had around 1,000, and idk their #s but Garden and Hurley were D2 in the early 90s. Now Twin Valley(Garden + Whitewood) is only around 225. Garden would have had to of been 325+ to be D2.

[thundercloud 179]

Richlands last year in D4 and we lost to eventual state champ Salem in the semis. We were in the 800 student range then. During the 90's both Richlands and Grundy both had around 1,000 students. I think the population decline has the most to do with it but they are more underling factors going into all of this.

What one has to remember the schools deeper in the coal fields population lose comes from blue collar families where brute work was the way of life.  Now we still have some who know what brute work is but fewer and fewer. Just a few of those make a big difference.

Robbins statements are based on his experience at Powell Valley, does that apply to every other school in SWVA, no, but some  What was it 8 state champions, you can see what he is saying if you put yourself in his shoes and think about Powell Valley in his time.

I to do not know how one can compare teams thru time. Today with year long conditioning, the development of the pass game would have to think would offset some of the strength of the run dominate yesteryear teams.

[redtiger 1,740]

Even tho its just been a decade or so ago it really is sorta like comparing apples to oranges.  15 years ago most teams didn't/couldn't throw the ball 20 times a game(except Haysi ;) ) but now that's almost the norm and a lot of schools do it on a high level. Just different.

 

Robbins size argument doesn't hold water to me, look at Unions OL and RBs now. The OL is really big and they go 2TE T-Formation and none of their players is exactly small.

[JimEverett 14]

Good debate. 

[Lance 228]

That's a strong, valid counterpoint.  Graham would've likely romped in the Division 2 title game in 2001 (with arguably its most physically gifted team ever).  Graham probably would've given George Wythe all it could handle in 2002 (and was Grundy's equal), and would've probably been considered a favorite over Gate City in 2003.  That's 2 likely and 1 possible state title that Graham missed on.  Grundy could've just as easily played for the 2002 state title in Division 2, considering that they beat Graham in the Region IV title game that year (aided by some awful weather...on a dry field, Graham would've been prohibitive favorites).

 

The only two thoughts against the point I have are: (1) I didn't think one school electing to play up influenced the classification of another; and (2) Gate City has played down since the 2001 season, which was the starting point of my analysis. 

 

 

You can't blame the 02 Region IV game Grundy won on the weather/field...it was played at Graham and the field was pretty much frozen solid.  Yeah it was cold, but Grundy had a legit team that year and just beat Graham straight up...if not for injuries and flu (not making excuses either, it's just what actually happened) they probably would have given Liberty Bedford a better game, still might not have beat them but they would have at least had a better showing like they did against Graham. Seems like every time Grundy has a legit shot at state friggin' disaster strikes...someone gets killed, flu, or screwed on a horrible call (happened twice)...it is what it is though. The last "good" team that Grundy had was 2004...since then it's been pretty rough...mostly due to all of the feeder schools closing....it's no coincidence that the '04 team was the last of the Vansant Elem. kids (and other feeder schools).

 

I still say things could be better and more teams around here could compete on a state level, even with lower numbers, but you have to have the same types of resources, focus, and dedication that the other side of the state has....and we don't even come close...speed schools...etc...this entire area is lacking to say the least. Yeah we have a good team every now and then, and someone local will win state every so often...but across the board year in and year out the overall quality of the teams we are now producing is inferior.

[redtiger 1,740]

 The last "good" team that Grundy had was 2004...since then it's been pretty rough...mostly due to all of the feeder schools closing....it's no coincidence that the '04 team was the last of the Vansant Elem. kids (and other feeder schools).

How do you think the closing of the elementary schools has hurt the football program? Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see the connection.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

You can't blame the 02 Region IV game Grundy won on the weather/field...it was played at Graham and the field was pretty much frozen solid. Yeah it was cold, but Grundy had a legit team that year and just beat Graham straight up...if not for injuries and flu (not making excuses either, it's just what actually happened) they probably would have given Liberty Bedford a better game, still might not have beat them but they would have at least had a better showing like they did against Graham. Seems like every time Grundy has a legit shot at state friggin' disaster strikes...someone gets killed, flu, or screwed on a horrible call (happened twice)...it is what it is though. The last "good" team that Grundy had was 2004...since then it's been pretty rough...mostly due to all of the feeder schools closing....it's no coincidence that the '04 team was the last of the Vansant Elem. kids (and other feeder schools).

 

I still say things could be better and more teams around here could compete on a state level, even with lower numbers, but you have to have the same types of resources, focus, and dedication that the other side of the state has....and we don't even come close...speed schools...etc...this entire area is lacking to say the least. Yeah we have a good team every now and then, and someone local will win state every so often...but across the board year in and year out the overall quality of the teams we are now producing is inferior.

I can blame that game on weather/field, and I will. You cannot honestly tell me that Graham would've lost if that field were dry. Grundy was as slow as a team of oxen that year, but were as large and powerful as the same. It's not a coincidence that Graham won handily on a dry field in October.

 

That D3 title was Liberty-Bedford's, anyway. So really moot in the end.

 

I will agree about 2004, but I still believe Gretna would've beaten Grundy handily.

[blueinbama 259]

Richlands last year in D4 and we lost to eventual state champ Salem in the semis. We were in the 800 student range then. During the 90's both Richlands and Grundy both had around 1,000 students. I think the population decline has the most to do with it but they are more underling factors going into all of this.

Plus Mance is not as active on the road these days.  Recruiting has taken a huge hit. 

[Lance 228]

I can blame that game on weather/field, and I will. You cannot honestly tell me that Graham would've lost if that field were dry. Grundy was as slow as a team of oxen that year, but were as large and powerful as the same. It's not a coincidence that Graham won handily on a dry field in October.

 

That D3 title was Liberty-Bedford's, anyway. So really moot in the end.

 

I will agree about 2004, but I still believe Gretna would've beaten Grundy handily.

 

Grundy had a killer D in 2004, they were loaded. Va High didn't even make it across the 50 in that last game until they were given the ball in OT. I don't know if Grundy could have come close to beating Gretna or not, but I sure would have like to have had a shot at it.

 

As for the 02 team, slow? Garon Marcum blew by Bradshaw enroute to a 96 yard TD in that game...I don't know why you would think they had no speed, that was one of, if not the fastest teams Grundy has ever had on the field. As for the playoff game vs. the regular season game that year, you played two different teams really, everyone was back for the playoff game, although they lost 3 starters during the playoff game to injury, which sucked...would have been nice to have played Bedford with a full load and everyone healthy...I don't know if I'd say it was Bedford's by default that year,..didn't Graham beat them? To me, with everyone healthy that year Graham, Grundy, and Bedford all had state quality teams...any of them could have won it that year of the 3...Bedford obviously had the talent and kept everyone healthy. 

 

If you didn't like the field at Mitchell, you sure wouldn't have liked it at Bedford that next week...it was way colder and the field was covered in snow before the game...they scraped it and made a muddy mess of it which half way froze as the game went on...ended up a muddy sheet of ice by the time it was over with.

 

It's hard to blame the weather and the field though when both teams play on the same surface...Grundy just played a perfect game that day and Graham turned the ball over...that first INT pick 6 by Marcum put Grundy on the board first and got them fired up...like it or not they just out played Graham that day...happens to everyone at some point. ...it's not like you had two TD's called back after the ball was 20 yards up the field then lost 6-0 in OT....but, that's another story lol.

 

You have made some good points here though UVAO, I agree with a lot of what you have said.

 

 

How do you think the closing of the elementary schools has hurt the football program? Not saying you're wrong, I just don't see the connection.

 

When there were 8 or 10 elementary schools and they each had teams that played all the other teams in the county a couple of times a year, you had 8 or 10 teams that all had starters who got a lot of playing time to pick from at the high school level...kids that had grown up playing the game and understood it and had a ton of playing time....once those closed you had 1 team with 1 group of starters and the rest were back ups...and most of the time the starters that wrestled didn't play football in high school...so...you do the math there on that one. Once the feeder schools closed, the talent level dropped.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

I don't know if I'd say it was Bedford's by default that year,..didn't Graham beat them? To me, with everyone healthy that year Graham, Grundy, and Bedford all had state quality teams...any of them could have won it that year of the 3...Bedford obviously had the talent and kept everyone healthy. 

 

Graham beat Liberty (Bedford) in 2001.  And I'll chime in with the opinion that nobody in Division 3 was going to beat the Minutemen in 2002.  That team didn't really have much luck and it wasn't a matter of health.  They lost 4 regular season games in the Seminole that season before cruising through the playoffs.  In the title game they rushed for 529 yards in a 41-6 victory that could've actually been a lot worse for New Kent.