Davis out @ UNC

[deuceswild 15]

UVA fans don't despise you because you're good. We don't despise Florida State, and they have infinitely more history and tradition than you do. We don't despise Miami, because they know where they stood. We "despise" you because you have less than zero historical sense about yourselves. Hokie Nation thinks it has the same standing as the Oklahomas, the Texases, the Ohio States, when it's football history before 1993 was an abomination.*

 

Hokie Nation has unsurprisingly captured the Virginia 18-40 generation. Kudos. But ask almost any Hokie football fan in that age group about any history prior to 1993, and you'll probably hear about Beamer and Bruce Smith. Ask them about anything beyond that, and you'll notice a puzzled look on said Hokie's face. That's because there's shockingly little to be proud of before 1993.

 

This doesn't happen with a bonafide football powerhouse. Ask a Texas fan, an Ohio State fan, about their program before 1990, and they'll rattle off information like an encyclopedia. Hokie fans do not.

 

Again, to be blunt, most fanbases know what they are and who they are. Hokie fans are probably the worst at having any kind of current or historical perspective about themselves.

 

*I'm using the collective "you".

 

You sound like a UT fan. Peyton Manthang hasn't won them any games since he graduated either.

 

The realization of where VT is, is this: The most consistent program in the ACC since joining. Period. Besides Duke. Period.

 

A perennial top 15 team.

 

A legitimate contender year in and year out for a national championship purely based on the fact that we can escape the ACC and make ourselves available for it. Doesn't mean we're among the top two teams every year, but we merely have a chance based on the BCS system.

 

Texas, Oklahoma, and even Tennessee have remarkable football histories. Alabama, Ohio State, and Florida State have remarkable football histories. They have a nice tradition, a nice fanbase, and pretty cheerleaders but so does VT. Instead of going back to the 50's ours goes way back to the 90's.

 

50 year old history means about this much (my fingers are really close together) when it comes to whose football team is better and where they stand among elite teams. Your most recent 5-10 years is honestly what everyone cares about-thinks about and its that span that most college kids even know about. This is the era that VT is relevant in.

 

Its like saying Richlands isn't an elite program because before the 90's they didn't have a comparable presence in the SWD as they do now or did in the early 90's.

 

 

You obviously don't read TechSideline.

 

I don't read one-sided sports forums. Do you?

[gcdevils47 10]

I don't know what world you are living in, I know plenty of people that are not Tech fans...In fact I would be willing to bet the majority of people in NETN are Vol fans, and not Tech fans.

 

Either way...who cares? Your arguments are pointless and irrational.

 

you would be surprised.

[HurricaneWarning 212]

I know far less Tech fans than I do "Category: Other" fans in deep SWVA.

 

Deep SWVA as in Lee County? Here in Marion the majority are Tech fans. I watched it transform from the late 90`s where it is today. In the mid 90`s it was rarity to see a Tech shirt anywhere here.

[gcdevils47 10]

Deep SWVA as in Lee County? Here in Marion the majority are Tech fans. I watched it transform from the late 90`s where it is today. In the mid 90`s it was rarity to see a Tech shirt anywhere here.

 

Scott is the same, a few UT shirts here and there..probably 3% of the population. If you go to Kingsport you will be surprised at how many VT shirts you see.

[deuceswild 15]

Deep SWVA as in Lee County? Here in Marion the majority are Tech fans. I watched it transform from the late 90`s where it is today. In the mid 90`s it was rarity to see a Tech shirt anywhere here.

 

Chilhowie was majority UT fans when I was there. Like 80-20.

[Hacker 82]

Every single member of your fanbase thinks you are the greatest thing since sliced bread.

 

 

Oh really, you are speaking for me? I love the Hokies, but sliced bread is another thing.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Why does being ranked #1 matter? You can go to the national championship ranked #2 as well. No research here on my part but, VT's been ranked #2 more weeks than UVA has been ranked in the last 12-13 years. If its not true it has to be close. And if its not close, it ironically feels that way.

 

You're bragging about being #2? Goodness, friend, I'd break my arm patting myself on the back if I constantly bragged about the UVA teams that have been ranked #2 in something over the years. That's just sad. Shoot, I'm even getting numb to being constantly #1 in so many different sports.

 

I just find it ridiculously ironic that a school whose fanbase stirs itself up with "this could be the year" hype every season has never, not ever, been ranked #1 in not even 1 AP or USA Today poll. Meanwhile, big brother to the northeast, whose football history was pretty much dead even up to 1998, has. It tickles me.

[deuceswild 15]

You're bragging about being #2? Goodness, friend, I'd break my arm patting myself on the back if I constantly bragged about the UVA teams that have been ranked #2 in something over the years. That's just sad. Shoot, I'm even getting numb to being constantly #1 in so many different sports.

 

I just find it ridiculously ironic that a school whose fanbase stirs itself up with "this could be the year" hype every season has never, not ever, been ranked #1 in not even 1 AP or USA Today poll. Meanwhile, big brother to the northeast, whose football history was pretty much dead even up to 1998, has. It tickles me.

 

Quick reminder. This is a football discussion. Not tiddly winks or backgammon or whatever sport UVA prides itself on.

 

And I wasn't bragging about #2. I was reminding you that VT > UVA. You were #1 once, yay! UVA is the only one who remembers it...

 

When was the last time UVA was ranked in the top 10? 15? In football.

 

There's no shame in #2 my friend. Its why we're so eager to move onto to number one.

 

And thats the only pick you have at my argument?

 

Best,

 

Dueces.

Edited August 2, 2011 by deuceswild

[hokie07 11]

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Quick reminder. This is a football discussion. Not tiddly winks or backgammon or whatever sport UVA prides itself on.

 

And I wasn't bragging about #2. I was reminding you that VT > UVA. You were #1 once, yay! UVA is the only one who remembers it...

 

When was the last time UVA was ranked in the top 10? 15? In football.

 

There's no shame in #2 my friend. Its why we're so eager to move onto to number one.

 

And thats the only pick you have at my argument?

 

Best,

 

Dueces.

 

At least more people remember UVA being ranked #1 than VT being ranked #1. Hard to remember something that never happened, right? You conveniently bypass and belittle my argument, then step right up and make an argument that's even more meek and pitiful.

 

You're main sticking point is that VT has been ranked #2 in the last 15 years, therefore VT is worlds superior to UVA. Congratulations on being #2 a few times. Being #2 doesn't fill that trophy case built from hubris. That's why you will never be on the same plane as Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, even Clemson, until you win one, IF you win one. Those are the ACC teams that have the hardware AND a semblance of history before Clinton's 1st term.

 

You may own Virginia football since 1998, that's OK. 11-12, so be it. I don't lose sleep over it. You'll probably win 4+ more before the inevitable happens. Enjoy it: the gravy train ends when Frank leaves. Deep down, Hokie fans know it, hence why the 1st loss every season is met with more and more angst than the season before it. The only person on VT's staff who has any kind of credentials to be HC is Foster, and I frankly don't believe he has it in him to be a successful HC. VT would have to pretty much empty the coffers to bring in a HC that could even do 80%+ of what Beamer could do there. Does VT want to sacrifice its athletics funding on a crap shoot? That's something your fanbase is going to have to reconcile when that day comes that Beamer retires.

 

Football isn't the only sport that makes the world go round, Hoss. In football, VT > UVA. In pretty much everything else significant, UVA > VT. Let's just say, the Hoos have the better end of this bargain.

[deuceswild 15]

At least more people remember UVA being ranked #1 than VT being ranked #1. Hard to remember something that never happened, right? You conveniently bypass and belittle my argument, then step right up and make an argument that's even more meek and pitiful.

 

You're main sticking point is that VT has been ranked #2 in the last 15 years, therefore VT is worlds superior to UVA. Congratulations on being #2 a few times. Being #2 doesn't fill that trophy case built from hubris. That's why you will never be on the same plane as Florida State, Miami, Georgia Tech, even Clemson, until you win one, IF you win one. Those are the ACC teams that have the hardware AND a semblance of history before Clinton's 1st term.

 

You may own Virginia football since 1998, that's OK. 11-12, so be it. I don't lose sleep over it. You'll probably win 4+ more before the inevitable happens. Enjoy it: the gravy train ends when Frank leaves. Deep down, Hokie fans know it, hence why the 1st loss every season is met with more and more angst than the season before it. The only person on VT's staff who has any kind of credentials to be HC is Foster, and I frankly don't believe he has it in him to be a successful HC. VT would have to pretty much empty the coffers to bring in a HC that could even do 80%+ of what Beamer could do there. Does VT want to sacrifice its athletics funding on a crap shoot? That's something your fanbase is going to have to reconcile when that day comes that Beamer retires.

 

Football isn't the only sport that makes the world go round, Hoss. In football, VT > UVA. In pretty much everything else significant, UVA > VT. Let's just say, the Hoos have the better end of this bargain.

 

What is the difference between being ranked #1 and #2 until after the big game? Both of those teams go to the national championship if they stay that way until the end. It's more like 1 and 1A.

 

Just being ranked #1 doesn't get you a trophy. I've typed like 15 paragraphs on this, my main sticking point is not just that VT has been ranked #2 more than UVA has been ranked (I made that up but maybe its true), but that is certainly a big one. Thats just one point you pulled out because you thought making fun of being #2 would hurt my feelings. You keep plugging that UVA was once ranked #1 and that somehow puts them in a league to their own? Buddy, being ranked #1 for a blink of an eye won't do it. Derrick Cope led a few laps in races too. You have to have a national presence on a yearly basis like your soccer, lacrosse, and baseball teams have. Like WVU basketball has. Like VT football has. IF you want your program to be respected..

 

I think Frank has earned the right to step down at his own will. I think our program is now desirable enough that we could bring in a respectable outside hire. Maybe not a Nick Saban but someone who wants the reigns to a winning program. Will VT hire from the outside? It depends on when Frank leaves and where Bud is. I don't think that after Frank the wheels will fall off the bus and even if they do, I'm not going anywhere. All this is speculative anyway and doesn't necessarily belong in our discussion, but there ya go. Keep wishin.

 

Again, your last 50 years of history mean squat. If you don't think in this current day that VT football isn't above Miami, Georgia Tech, or Clemson then you're simply in denial or just not paying attention. Recruits aren't going to GT because they shared a national championship in the 90's. Recruits aren't going to Miami because Butch Davis isn't paying them to anymore. Recruits don't go to Clemson because they haven't been relevant since I owned my first puppy. Dont' get me wrong, these places DO RECRUIT well but kids aren't going there because they won eons ago and these programs aren't attracting new fans for that reason either. I just don't get the history arguments. I know today, VT's program is the most winning and most consistent program in the ACC. There's no arguing it. Maybe one day I'll say to a new generation of kids, "Well back in the 2000's, VT was the ACC's crown jewel!" and those kids will tell me to go screw off because that was 50 years ago and people stopped caring 40 years ago. But until then....

 

I guess I just find humor in the fact that no matter what, people find a way to dog a program that climbed from so far down, reached a highly consistent and competitive level, and doing it all under the same guys, the same way, every year.

 

I'll let it be. What kind of world would it be if a Hokie and a Hoo agreed? All the best to UVA, I sincerely hope we someday have a ranked meeting at year's end. The onfield rivalry certainly needs a kick.

Edited August 2, 2011 by deuceswild

[Hacker 82]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but who knocked UVA off when they were #1?

[deuceswild 15]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but who knocked UVA off when they were #1?

 

Georgia Tech.

 

VT also beat UVA later that year, 38-13.

[GMan 3,569]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but who knocked UVA off when they were #1?

 

Georgia Tech.

 

VT also beat UVA later that year, 38-13.

 

But let's be honest...other than Clemson in the 2nd game of the season, the Hoos didn't face what I'd call "Murderer's Row" in their first 7 games of that season...Kansas, Clemson, Navy, Duke, William & Mary, N.C. State, and Wake Forest. And the win over Clemson was the first time in 30 attempts that UVA had beaten the Tigers...the Hoos were 0-29 vs. Clemson to that point, including a loss the previous year when they won their first of two ACC Championships...the glory days of the George Welsh era...

[BHS03 99]

Just go listen to Colin Cowherds rant about UVA football. I'm not a big Cowherd fan but he just RIPS them.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but who knocked UVA off when they were #1?

 

Georgia Tech, who split the 1990 national title. 41-38, coming back from 21 down to win on a Scott Sisson FG.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

But let's be honest...other than Clemson in the 2nd game of the season, the Hoos didn't face what I'd call "Murderer's Row" in their first 7 games of that season...Kansas, Clemson, Navy, Duke, William & Mary, N.C. State, and Wake Forest. And the win over Clemson was the first time in 30 attempts that UVA had beaten the Tigers...the Hoos were 0-29 vs. Clemson to that point, including a loss the previous year when they won their first of two ACC Championships...the glory days of the George Welsh era...

 

Clemson was a Top 10 team when we beat them 20-7. It ended the "white meat" streak.

 

You also don't give any credit to the fact that UVA was decimated by injuries suffered up to and including that Georgia Tech game. Both Moores were injured, Shawn with a broken thumb that kept him out until the Sugar Bowl. Pretty much every player of significance n that team suffered injuries that kept them out of multiple games. I think a team that doesn't look like an infirmary finishes that season with 1 loss...

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Just go listen to Colin Cowherds rant about UVA football. I'm not a big Cowherd fan but he just RIPS them.

 

This has been covered on this board dozens of times in laborious detail. In fact, it was the subject of talk just a few weeks ago. I'm sick of giving that Eastern Washington dropout face time.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

What is the difference between being ranked #1 and #2 until after the big game? Both of those teams go to the national championship if they stay that way until the end. It's more like 1 and 1A.

 

Just being ranked #1 doesn't get you a trophy. I've typed like 15 paragraphs on this, my main sticking point is not just that VT has been ranked #2 more than UVA has been ranked (I made that up but maybe its true), but that is certainly a big one. Thats just one point you pulled out because you thought making fun of being #2 would hurt my feelings. You keep plugging that UVA was once ranked #1 and that somehow puts them in a league to their own? Buddy, being ranked #1 for a blink of an eye won't do it. Derrick Cope led a few laps in races too. You have to have a national presence on a yearly basis like your soccer, lacrosse, and baseball teams have. Like WVU basketball has. Like VT football has. IF you want your program to be respected..

 

I think Frank has earned the right to step down at his own will. I think our program is now desirable enough that we could bring in a respectable outside hire. Maybe not a Nick Saban but someone who wants the reigns to a winning program. Will VT hire from the outside? It depends on when Frank leaves and where Bud is. I don't think that after Frank the wheels will fall off the bus and even if they do, I'm not going anywhere. All this is speculative anyway and doesn't necessarily belong in our discussion, but there ya go. Keep wishin.

 

Again, your last 50 years of history mean squat. If you don't think in this current day that VT football isn't above Miami, Georgia Tech, or Clemson then you're simply in denial or just not paying attention. Recruits aren't going to GT because they shared a national championship in the 90's. Recruits aren't going to Miami because Butch Davis isn't paying them to anymore. Recruits don't go to Clemson because they haven't been relevant since I owned my first puppy. Dont' get me wrong, these places DO RECRUIT well but kids aren't going there because they won eons ago and these programs aren't attracting new fans for that reason either. I just don't get the history arguments. I know today, VT's program is the most winning and most consistent program in the ACC. There's no arguing it. Maybe one day I'll say to a new generation of kids, "Well back in the 2000's, VT was the ACC's crown jewel!" and those kids will tell me to go screw off because that was 50 years ago and people stopped caring 40 years ago. But until then....

 

I guess I just find humor in the fact that no matter what, people find a way to dog a program that climbed from so far down, reached a highly consistent and competitive level, and doing it all under the same guys, the same way, every year.

 

I'll let it be. What kind of world would it be if a Hokie and a Hoo agreed? All the best to UVA, I sincerely hope we someday have a ranked meeting at year's end. The onfield rivalry certainly needs a kick.

 

You're misguided about UVA's football history, so let me shine some light on that which you wouldn't dig up on your own. UVA, under a coach named Art Guepe, lost a grand total of 4 games between the 1950-1952 seasons. UVA's stodgy administration took the stupid position of "Orange Bowl or bust", and turned down a Cotton Bowl bid for the 1952 season. This pissed Guepe off enough to leave.

 

After the 1952 season, UVA president Miles Gooch commissioned what was called "The Gooch Report", summed up by the ridiculous assertion that "big-time athletics" were killing the university's reputation (not true), and the only solution was to end the football program. Gooch didn't go quite that far, but only allowed 10 scholarship athletes on the football team until the silly policy was revoked in the late 1960s. We still even had an all-American on the roster, Jim Bakhtiar.

 

UVA had two winning seasons from 1953-1981. One 6-5 season in 1968, one 6-5 season a decade later. Not even a coaching staff with Don Shula on it could muster a successful campaign. The crashes and burns during that era were memorable. What Hokie fans love to forget now, one of the occasional wins we could count on during that era was an equally fetid VPISU squad.

 

The administration by 1981 had taken a different approach to collegiate football, and lured George Welsh away from Navy. The rest is history: the first bowl win over Purdue in the 1984 Peach Bowl. The 1989 ACC Title (we owned the tiebreak over Duke). What could have been in 1990. Losing 3 games by less than 10 points total in 1995. That beautiful comeback in Blacksburg, despite the refs doing everything imaginable to prevent it.

 

So, there you are. There's our history from 1950-2000, which you just dismissed as nothing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I know you've typed 15+ paragraphs, and I've typed as many or more. My point is that your elation at being ranked #2 is a pitiful argument and a laughable indicator of the mental gymnastics that your fanbase as a whole will go to in a misguided effort to validate itself. You bash my "VT has never been ranked #1" argument, something that actually holds weight when being a precursor to winning a championship is being ranked #1. #2 is first loser. As I said before, the number of Virginia teams that have been #2 in a sport in the last 15 years is staggering. #2 is an afterthought.

 

Besides, only once was VT ever ranked #2 and got to play for a national championship. Too bad that Peter Warrick was put on Earth to stop the Virginia Tech Hokies from winning a national championship. To me, national presence = winning championships. UVA lacrosse is a "national presence". UConn basketball is a "national presence". Miami/FSU football, national presences. VT football, a team that has never been ranked #1 at any time in its history, is not a "national presence". Win that crystal football, then we'll talk.

 

I don't bring up points to hurt feelings. I brought up the point based upon a UT fan smugly (but with some merit) pointing out the significant lack of tradition that UVA, VT, and UNC all have given how all three are discussed so much on this board. I trotted out the chestnut to show that UVA, at least, has reached the top, if only briefly, something the other two haven't ever done. It was a legitimate response that a Hokie fan (not you) took exception to, hence the significant effort on my half to defend it.

 

Since I have thoroughly, completely, laboriously debunked this #2 nonsense, I'm not discussing the notion again. It's not worth angering people I legitimately like and respect.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Simply put, when Frank leaves, your administration cannot afford someone of Nick Saban's stature without sticking your necks in the fiscal guillotine. Unlike UVA, whose donors will continue to pile on the money regardless of the product on the field, VT fans as a whole do not support sports that perform poorly. Again, this doesn't apply to all VT donors, but the proof's in the pudding. In order to hire an upper-echelon coach, you're going to have to rely on Beamer's legacy to put butts in the seats for the 5 years it'll take for a coach to make the program "his".

 

I've said it before, and it still stands: the only person you could promote from within that wouldn't meet universal skepticism is Bud Foster, and we all know about Foster. Great defensive mind, gruff and not-so-well-spoken with the press (the most underrated thing about Frank Beamer).

 

What if that new coach goes 6-6 a few times? What if UVA rolls off 3-4 straight in the series? Will Hokie fans continue to support the product, or will what happened to UVA happen to VT, where the Hokies lose the non-alums for a generation? Big, big gamble coming up in the next decade for VT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My friend, I too am looking forward to this football season. Best case scenario, we're both sitting at 8+ wins coming into the November showdown. You'll almost certainly be there, and with good QB play, it's not ridiculously farfetched for us. I have faith that this rivalry won't be so one-sided in the next few years. I do know one thing, I'm ready as ever for September.

[gcdevils47 10]

You're misguided about UVA's football history, so let me shine some light on that which you wouldn't dig up on your own. UVA, under a coach named Art Guepe, lost a grand total of 4 games between the 1950-1952 seasons. UVA's stodgy administration took the stupid position of "Orange Bowl or bust", and turned down a Cotton Bowl bid for the 1952 season. This pissed Guepe off enough to leave.

 

After the 1952 season, UVA president Miles Gooch commissioned what was called "The Gooch Report", summed up by the ridiculous assertion that "big-time athletics" were killing the university's reputation (not true), and the only solution was to end the football program. Gooch didn't go quite that far, but only allowed 10 scholarship athletes on the football team until the silly policy was revoked in the late 1960s. We still even had an all-American on the roster, Jim Bakhtiar.

 

UVA had two winning seasons from 1953-1981. One 6-5 season in 1968, one 6-5 season a decade later. Not even a coaching staff with Don Shula on it could muster a successful campaign. The crashes and burns during that era were memorable. What Hokie fans love to forget now, one of the occasional wins we could count on during that era was an equally fetid VPISU squad.

 

The administration by 1981 had taken a different approach to collegiate football, and lured George Welsh away from Navy. The rest is history: the first bowl win over Purdue in the 1984 Peach Bowl. The 1989 ACC Title (we owned the tiebreak over Duke). What could have been in 1990. Losing 3 games by less than 10 points total in 1995. That beautiful comeback in Blacksburg, despite the refs doing everything imaginable to prevent it.

 

So, there you are. There's our history from 1950-2000, which you just dismissed as nothing.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I know you've typed 15+ paragraphs, and I've typed as many or more. My point is that your elation at being ranked #2 is a pitiful argument and a laughable indicator of the mental gymnastics that your fanbase as a whole will go to in a misguided effort to validate itself. You bash my "VT has never been ranked #1" argument, something that actually holds weight when being a precursor to winning a championship is being ranked #1. #2 is first loser. As I said before, the number of Virginia teams that have been #2 in a sport in the last 15 years is staggering. #2 is an afterthought.

 

Besides, only once was VT ever ranked #2 and got to play for a national championship. Too bad that Peter Warrick was put on Earth to stop the Virginia Tech Hokies from winning a national championship. To me, national presence = winning championships. UVA lacrosse is a "national presence". UConn basketball is a "national presence". Miami/FSU football, national presences. VT football, a team that has never been ranked #1 at any time in its history, is not a "national presence". Win that crystal football, then we'll talk.

 

I don't bring up points to hurt feelings. I brought up the point based upon a UT fan smugly (but with some merit) pointing out the significant lack of tradition that UVA, VT, and UNC all have given how all three are discussed so much on this board. I trotted out the chestnut to show that UVA, at least, has reached the top, if only briefly, something the other two haven't ever done. It was a legitimate response that a Hokie fan (not you) took exception to, hence the significant effort on my half to defend it.

 

Since I have thoroughly, completely, laboriously debunked this #2 nonsense, I'm not discussing the notion again. It's not worth angering people I legitimately like and respect.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Simply put, when Frank leaves, your administration cannot afford someone of Nick Saban's stature without sticking your necks in the fiscal guillotine. Unlike UVA, whose donors will continue to pile on the money regardless of the product on the field, VT fans as a whole do not support sports that perform poorly. Again, this doesn't apply to all VT donors, but the proof's in the pudding. In order to hire an upper-echelon coach, you're going to have to rely on Beamer's legacy to put butts in the seats for the 5 years it'll take for a coach to make the program "his".

 

I've said it before, and it still stands: the only person you could promote from within that wouldn't meet universal skepticism is Bud Foster, and we all know about Foster. Great defensive mind, gruff and not-so-well-spoken with the press (the most underrated thing about Frank Beamer).

 

What if that new coach goes 6-6 a few times? What if UVA rolls off 3-4 straight in the series? Will Hokie fans continue to support the product, or will what happened to UVA happen to VT, where the Hokies lose the non-alums for a generation? Big, big gamble coming up in the next decade for VT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

My friend, I too am looking forward to this football season. Best case scenario, we're both sitting at 8+ wins coming into the November showdown. You'll almost certainly be there, and with good QB play, it's not ridiculously farfetched for us. I have faith that this rivalry won't be so one-sided in the next few years. I do know one thing, I'm ready as ever for September.

 

True Fan.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

True Fan.

 

Thanks, I try.

We could go 0-12 for the rest of time, and I'd watch every game and be at least 3.

That being said, losing often makes the wins that much sweeter when they do come.

[vthokies4life 10]

To me, national presence = winning championships. UVA lacrosse is a "national presence". UConn basketball is a "national presence". Miami/FSU football, national presences. VT football, a team that has never been ranked #1 at any time in its history, is not a "national presence". Win that crystal football, then we'll talk.

This conversation ends with the quoted statement, and it's a point you are simply and utterly wrong about.

 

It's "national presence" defined by you. To pretty much every sane, objective fan, national presence is defined by a team's ability to be consistently competitive and have, at least, a legitimate outside shot at competing for a national title year in and year out.

 

You'll probably reel off ten paragraphs of dribble and score it as another won argument, but I'm out of this conversation now.

 

Winning consistently validates a football program. We just have one step left to take before it's valid to even the most seething haters.

[deuceswild 15]

You're misguided about UVA's football history, so let me shine some light on that which you wouldn't dig up on your own. UVA, under a coach named Art Guepe, lost a grand total of 4 games between the 1950-1952 seasons. UVA's stodgy administration took the stupid position of "Orange Bowl or bust", and turned down a Cotton Bowl bid for the 1952 season. This pissed Guepe off enough to leave.

 

After the 1952 season, UVA president Miles Gooch commissioned what was called "The Gooch Report", summed up by the ridiculous assertion that "big-time athletics" were killing the university's reputation (not true), and the only solution was to end the football program. Gooch didn't go quite that far, but only allowed 10 scholarship athletes on the football team until the silly policy was revoked in the late 1960s. We still even had an all-American on the roster, Jim Bakhtiar.

 

UVA had two winning seasons from 1953-1981. One 6-5 season in 1968, one 6-5 season a decade later. Not even a coaching staff with Don Shula on it could muster a successful campaign. The crashes and burns during that era were memorable. What Hokie fans love to forget now, one of the occasional wins we could count on during that era was an equally fetid VPISU squad.

 

The administration by 1981 had taken a different approach to collegiate football, and lured George Welsh away from Navy. The rest is history: the first bowl win over Purdue in the 1984 Peach Bowl. The 1989 ACC Title (we owned the tiebreak over Duke). What could have been in 1990. Losing 3 games by less than 10 points total in 1995. That beautiful comeback in Blacksburg, despite the refs doing everything imaginable to prevent it.

 

So, there you are. There's our history from 1950-2000, which you just dismissed as nothing.

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I know you've typed 15+ paragraphs, and I've typed as many or more. My point is that your elation at being ranked #2 is a pitiful argument and a laughable indicator of the mental gymnastics that your fanbase as a whole will go to in a misguided effort to validate itself. You bash my "VT has never been ranked #1" argument, something that actually holds weight when being a precursor to winning a championship is being ranked #1. #2 is first loser. As I said before, the number of Virginia teams that have been #2 in a sport in the last 15 years is staggering. #2 is an afterthought.

 

Besides, only once was VT ever ranked #2 and got to play for a national championship. Too bad that Peter Warrick was put on Earth to stop the Virginia Tech Hokies from winning a national championship. To me, national presence = winning championships. UVA lacrosse is a "national presence". UConn basketball is a "national presence". Miami/FSU football, national presences. VT football, a team that has never been ranked #1 at any time in its history, is not a "national presence". Win that crystal football, then we'll talk.

 

I don't bring up points to hurt feelings. I brought up the point based upon a UT fan smugly (but with some merit) pointing out the significant lack of tradition that UVA, VT, and UNC all have given how all three are discussed so much on this board. I trotted out the chestnut to show that UVA, at least, has reached the top, if only briefly, something the other two haven't ever done. It was a legitimate response that a Hokie fan (not you) took exception to, hence the significant effort on my half to defend it.

 

Since I have thoroughly, completely, laboriously debunked this #2 nonsense, I'm not discussing the notion again. It's not worth angering people I legitimately like and respect.

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Simply put, when Frank leaves, your administration cannot afford someone of Nick Saban's stature without sticking your necks in the fiscal guillotine. Unlike UVA, whose donors will continue to pile on the money regardless of the product on the field, VT fans as a whole do not support sports that perform poorly. Again, this doesn't apply to all VT donors, but the proof's in the pudding. In order to hire an upper-echelon coach, you're going to have to rely on Beamer's legacy to put butts in the seats for the 5 years it'll take for a coach to make the program "his".

 

I've said it before, and it still stands: the only person you could promote from within that wouldn't meet universal skepticism is Bud Foster, and we all know about Foster. Great defensive mind, gruff and not-so-well-spoken with the press (the most underrated thing about Frank Beamer).

 

What if that new coach goes 6-6 a few times? What if UVA rolls off 3-4 straight in the series? Will Hokie fans continue to support the product, or will what happened to UVA happen to VT, where the Hokies lose the non-alums for a generation? Big, big gamble coming up in the next decade for VT.

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My friend, I too am looking forward to this football season. Best case scenario, we're both sitting at 8+ wins coming into the November showdown. You'll almost certainly be there, and with good QB play, it's not ridiculously farfetched for us. I have faith that this rivalry won't be so one-sided in the next few years. I do know one thing, I'm ready as ever for September.

 

Firstly. A novel!? UVAobserver, I DO have a life. I can't read 32 pages of your UVA version of Mien Kamf without the risk of getting fired! I"ll try to keep it short as this is my last post on the subject.

 

I admire UVA's football history, really do. But it's still meaningless today. For today's college athlete and college student, it was "stuff that happened" before they were born. Few of them care and even fewer probably know. What you did between the War of 1812 and 2000 is not what brings in new recruits each year and its not what keeps them away. Its not what attracts new fans, its not what makes teams despise you. Its what has happened between 2000 and now that is on the forefront of their minds, my mind, and everyone else's mind. And probably even later than 2000 for most. Bet money that your recruiters don't tell prospects that "you were pretty good back in 1990 for a week". Young people see your football program as average at best or a tad below. Its like OJ Simpson. My parents remember him as an amazing athlete and terrible actor who became a vicious murderer. My generation remembers him as a terrible actor and a vicious murderer. Unless its your team, sports memories are often short.

 

You're dwelling on this #2 thing. All I intended with that was in jest by saying "VT has probably been ranked #2 in the last 12 years more than UVA has been ranked" <<paraphrase. I'm not saying, "Hey, we're #2, we're world beaters." I'm saying we've been a more nationally relevant team than you've even be talked about on TV. If you think being #2 is laughable, then fine. You're right, we should've been number one. Nationally ranked #2 is for pussies. You win.

 

The whole Frank think is speculative and not really worth argument as neither of us really know what will happen. I"ll just say no matter what, I'm a Hokie fan. 0-12, 12-0, 6-6, doesn't matter. I can't speak for everyone else, but I don't think a few bad seasons will ruin our program forever. Of course UVA fans hopes it does and you wouldn't be a true Hoo otherwise, so you're forgiven.

[bhs7695 185]

But let's be honest...other than Clemson in the 2nd game of the season, the Hoos didn't face what I'd call "Murderer's Row" in their first 7 games of that season...Kansas, Clemson, Navy, Duke, William & Mary, N.C. State, and Wake Forest. And the win over Clemson was the first time in 30 attempts that UVA had beaten the Tigers...the Hoos were 0-29 vs. Clemson to that point, including a loss the previous year when they won their first of two ACC Championships...the glory days of the George Welsh era...

 

VT played at GT that same year and lost to the Jackets 6-3......

[bhs7695 185]

Thanks, I try.

We could go 0-12 for the rest of time, and I'd watch every game and be at least 3.

That being said, losing often makes the wins that much sweeter when they do come.

 

Didn't you make a post about not having a desire to watch the UVA - VT football game a couple of years ago in Charlottesville because you didn't think UVA stood a chance? Only after VT lost to UNC did you become "giddy" posting that you would be watching the game after all "with freakin bells on" if I remember correctly....