Athletic performance of consolidated schools

[RichlandsAlum 678]

I was about to post this in the Beaver-Graham thread on the hoops section when it occurred to me that it's a significant enough tangent to merit its own topic. And for lack of a better suggestion, I'm sticking it here.

 

Here's the question I want to ask.... In terms of athletic success, are consolidated schools "loaded for bear" or are they destined to fail?

 

There are several examples, but the situation that first made me ponder this issue is Mount View in WV.

 

On the one side, it's somewhat surprising that Mount View has never been particularly successful in athletics -- even before the economic collapse that began in the late 1970's. Given the sum of its parts (Gary and Welch in football; Northfork in basketball), it would have been reasonable to assume that MV would have hoisted a lot of banners -- or a lot more than they have.

 

On the other hand, perhaps the increased distance for students to school and the geographical trade off in economies of scale automatically erode a consolidated school's ability to be competitive in athletics.

 

What say you? Which is it?

 

Specific examples (like Lee High and Carroll County) are welcome, but not required.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Very interesting question. Short answer, I think it doesn't succeed as much as some might believe.

 

Long answer, there are two main reasons among others why the success is stunted. One is classification, and there are two prongs to it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all those schools (Gary/Welch/Northfork) were in a classification below the AA that Mount View is and has been. First, you're consolidating into a higher classification, against competition with an equivalent talent pool. Without belaboring the obvious, it's the smaller fish-bigger pool problem. Second, a minor point, you're eliminating three schools from the classification below, which of course will alter the numbers closer to the top of the classification.

 

Two is the athletes themselves. Often time, particularly in sports with smaller rosters like basketball, 1-2 athletes can make all the difference in the world. Happened in Carlisle, PA, which became the first public school to win 4 straight state titles in basketball in any state. There were three freshmen: one went to the NBA after college, and two others went to high D-I programs. Just a fluky run of athletes. If a successful smaller school consolidates, then the run of athletes ends, you will see a consolidated school with smaller success than you might suspect.

 

Another example that I think is unfolding before our eyes is Union HS. You'd think consolidating Powell Valley and Appalachia would create a "superteam" in football based on their 90s performances. The run of athletes ended, then consolidation happened. A good team, but not the level you'd expect based on history. And they're competing against larger schools by almost double. Perhaps, to a lesser extent, you see this with Central in baseball, based upon J.J. Kelly's history.

 

I feel as if I've rambled. I hope it makes sense.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Very interesting question. Short answer, I think it doesn't succeed as much as some might believe.

 

Long answer, there are two main reasons among others why the success is stunted. One is classification, and there are two prongs to it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but all those schools (Gary/Welch/Northfork) were in a classification below the AA that Mount View is and has been. First, you're consolidating into a higher classification, against competition with an equivalent talent pool. Without belaboring the obvious, it's the smaller fish-bigger pool problem. Second, a minor point, you're eliminating three schools from the classification below, which of course will alter the numbers closer to the top of the classification.

 

Two is the athletes themselves. Often time, particularly in sports with smaller rosters like basketball, 1-2 athletes can make all the difference in the world. Happened in Carlisle, PA, which became the first public school to win 4 straight state titles in basketball in any state. There were three freshmen: one went to the NBA after college, and two others went to high D-I programs. Just a fluky run of athletes. If a successful smaller school consolidates, then the run of athletes ends, you will see a consolidated school with smaller success than you might suspect.

 

Another example that I think is unfolding before our eyes is Union HS. You'd think consolidating Powell Valley and Appalachia would create a "superteam" in football based on their 90s performances. The run of athletes ended, then consolidation happened. A good team, but not the level you'd expect based on history. And they're competing against larger schools by almost double.

 

I feel as if I've rambled. I hope it makes sense.

 

Good points. And I ought to have offered apologies up front for pitching a topic that lends itself to rambling (of which I am occasionally guilty from time to time -- like now).

 

Local demographic factors are certainly key. I would offer Pulaski County as a good example of synergy (the whole actually being better than the sum of its parts -- the one bit of Stephen Covey's work that I agree with 100%). But I think that the success of the Cougars in football probably correlated directly with the local economy in that case.

 

It's this kind of specifically local thing that I'm particularly interested in, and which I think has value for local leaders who are considering consolidation.

 

The classification angle is also a good point. Mount View opened its doors in 1978 as a AAA school merging Welch and Gary. I know that Gary had been in Class AA up to that point and that they had fielded state championship football teams at that level within the previous decade. I'm not 100% positive about the enrollment at Welch, but I would guess that they were also AA at the time. Even though they were both pretty good in football at the AA, they refuted the concept of synergy at the AAA level.

 

We've touched on Mount View, Union, and Pulaski County. There are obviously others. Someone with insight into Lee High could offer some really valuable input here.

[ThomasDenton 79]

Over the last few years, I've spoken with a lot of people from Lee County. I've heard about how Lee High School was really good at a lot of sports in the first years (like football) but things changed. Some of the reasons I've heard are driving distances to the school (I think it was the baseball coach that told me a couple of years ago about that...said they should have left a few schools open), lack of interest in sports (which you see in many schools today), and of course there's that revolving door they have at the head coaching position for varsity football.

[redtiger 1,742]

I truly expect Ridgeview(Haysi/Clintwood) it be successful for several reasons; 1 The new school will only be 15-20 minutes from the old schools, 2 Ridgeview will be a AA school, until a few years ago Haysi and Clintwood were competing on the D2 level(more or less AA) and 3 the athletic programs at Haysi and Clintwood are strong(Basketball, Football and Baseball).

 

 

 

Union football is not a good example imo, atleast not the football program. PV and Appy were both pretty bad for a few years before being consolidated. And Union has been pretty good the past two years but hasnt been able to win the tight games, Union is 21 or so points away from back to back 7-3/8-2 seasons and advancing to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Which is alot better than the seasons PV and Appy had put up before consolidation.

[cwood78 161]

I truly expect Ridgeview(Haysi/Clintwood) it be successful for several reasons; 1 The new school will only be 15-20 minutes from the old schools, 2 Ridgeview will be a AA school, until a few years ago Haysi and Clintwood were competing on the D2 level(more or less AA) and 3 the athletic programs at Haysi and Clintwood are strong(Basketball, Football and Baseball).

 

 

 

Union football is not a good example imo, atleast not the football program. PV and Appy were both pretty bad for a few years before being consolidated. And Union has been pretty good the past two years but hasnt been able to win the tight games, Union is 21 or so points away from back to back 7-3/8-2 seasons and advancing to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Which is alot better than the seasons PV and Appy had put up before consolidation.

nm

[sixcat 2,937]

Carroll County consolidated in the 1960's, well before any of this mattered. Nobody thought about travel or district sizes then. Old Hillsville High and Woodlawn High had higher numbers of participation than Carroll has now as well. Carroll County has always had the overwhelming majority of its athletes come from a very small radius around the town of Hillsville and within the town itself.

 

Grayson County consolidated in 1988 so it would be a better example for this area. The consolidation affected Galax, Carroll and Grayson significantly. In a nutshell, Grayson County closed the high school in Fries and consolidated it with Independence to form Grayson County High. Galax, seeing its opportunity to limit enrollment for the overcrowding it was experiencing, closed enrollment to anyone living outside the Galax city limits. That forced the outlying communities of Grayson and Carroll like Woodlawn (58 area between Galax and I-77), Baywood (58 area between Galax and Independence) and Fairview (area between Galax and North Carolina) to begin busing in the kids who lived near the Galax city border but not inside the city limits. The animosity still lingers in the area. At the time, just before Grayson County consolidated, Galax was a AA size school playing in the old New River District.

 

As far as athletics, Independence was never very good in sports, any sport, until the Fries kids elevated the athletic programs across the board. Anyone who disputes that can simply look at records of any team pre 1988 and post 1988. The Fries kids still make up the vast majority of he talent in Grayson.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

I truly expect Ridgeview(Haysi/Clintwood) it be successful for several reasons; 1 The new school will only be 15-20 minutes from the old schools, 2 Ridgeview will be a AA school, until a few years ago Haysi and Clintwood were competing on the D2 level(more or less AA) and 3 the athletic programs at Haysi and Clintwood are strong(Basketball, Football and Baseball).

 

 

 

Union football is not a good example imo, atleast not the football program. PV and Appy were both pretty bad for a few years before being consolidated. And Union has been pretty good the past two years but hasnt been able to win the tight games, Union is 21 or so points away from back to back 7-3/8-2 seasons and advancing to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Which is alot better than the seasons PV and Appy had put up before consolidation.

 

Powell Valley wasn't exactly chopped liver, either. Beat Richlands more recently than many teams in the area. But the whole '20-25 points away' argument doesn't help you as much as you think. In fact, it plays right into my second point above.

[redtiger 1,742]

No PV wasnt terrible, I dont know their records right off hand but they were pretty average teams(lost to good teams and beat bad ones). Appy was pretty bad. I think that without a doubt the Union program of the last 2 years has been more competitive than PV was in the 2 years before consolidation.

Edited December 21, 2012 by redtiger

[EH31 2,532]

MT. View wasn't consolidated all at once. By the time Northfork was moved to Mt View most of thier great athletes had moved on by then.

[wave316 64]

I truly expect Ridgeview(Haysi/Clintwood) it be successful for several reasons; 1 The new school will only be 15-20 minutes from the old schools, 2 Ridgeview will be a AA school, until a few years ago Haysi and Clintwood were competing on the D2 level(more or less AA) and 3 the athletic programs at Haysi and Clintwood are strong(Basketball, Football and Baseball).

 

 

 

Union football is not a good example imo, atleast not the football program. PV and Appy were both pretty bad for a few years before being consolidated. And Union has been pretty good the past two years but hasnt been able to win the tight games, Union is 21 or so points away from back to back 7-3/8-2 seasons and advancing to the 2nd round of the playoffs. Which is alot better than the seasons PV and Appy had put up before consolidation.

 

When will Ridgeveiw be built and functional?

[cwood78 161]

maybe 2015 ..............

[RichlandsAlum 678]

MT. View wasn't consolidated all at once. By the time Northfork was moved to Mt View most of thier great athletes had moved on by then.

 

Correct. But I know that the Golden Knights never came close to meeting expectations in football. The opening of the school coincided almost precisely with the nose dive of the McDowell County economy (particularly in Gary), which accounts for some of the drop-off in available talent.

 

Interestingly enough, Big Creek still had some excellent teams in that particular time period. Of course, it didn't hurt that they had Danny Abercrombie on the roster and that they were still participating in Class AA. And for that matter, Iaeger was pretty competitive as well. It's possible that some of the athletes in the area may have moved from Gary to within the attendance zones of those two schools.

 

However, I do think that there's a strong argument that suggests that consolidated schools that land in a higher resulting classification will always be at a competitive disadvantage unless there are very significant factors (mainly economic) that prevent such a circumstance from occurring.

[wave316 64]

maybe 2015 ..............[/QUO

Are they running into issues with consolidation?

[redtiger 1,742]

Moving up in classification definately seems to be a major obstacle for athletic success.

 

What about Harlan County HS in KY. If im not mistaken the schools that went into HC were more or less small schools(enrollments under 500), but yet HC has had alot of success on the football field.

[redtiger 1,742]

maybe 2015 ..............[/QUO

Are they running into issues with consolidation?

 

No new issues that I know of. The issue with obtaining part of the property set the whole project back a little.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Moving up in classification definately seems to be a major obstacle for athletic success.

 

What about Harlan County HS in KY. If im not mistaken the schools that went into HC were more or less small schools(enrollments under 500), but yet HC has had alot of success on the football field.

 

Thanks for this example, redtiger. Assuming that you are very familiar with Harlan, when did the consolidation take place? How successful were the smaller schools prior to the consolidation?

[Beamerball 566]

2007 was Harlan County's first year. The previous year Cawood was 3-7 (wins over Hancock Co., TN, Evarts, and Knott Co. Central)...Cawood lost to Lee High 27-21 that year, Evarts was 2-8; and Cumberland was 7-4....Cumberland beat Cawood 32-19 and Evarts 38-34 that year. They'd win a handful of games most of the time in the latter seasons. Cawood was comparable to Lee High during that time in most seasons.

 

Most people like to mention Pennington and Jonesville's success when talking about Lee, but remember Lee was strong out of the gate...it wasn't until some 10 or so years down the road that things went downhill, especially on the football side. They still have some programs doing pretty good most of the time though (like basketball). And lets not forget Pennington and Jonesville's football success didn't come until the 70s-80s, the 80s mostly for Jonesville. Both were pretty bad before that. So they weren't always great. A good coaching staff happening upon Lee after Pennington helped a lot. The downfall of Lee's program happened the same time Willliams exited for good after the '98 season. He left the program two weeks prior the '99 season beginning and that put them in a tough spot, which was already going to be tough with them losing a lot to graduation. Lee started 0-4 that season then turned things around a bit the 2nd half and just missed continuing their playoff streak. Then they hired Brian Lee to coach the next season (Lee was Thomas Walker's head coach, who just recently resigned his position there). That just never worked out, he wasn't the right fit. After those 3 tough seasons, they had one coach back out after initially being hired and the next one stay just one season then was fired due to incident (fighting) involving some of the students. Wolfe (who was the interim in '99) came back on as HC but the teams struggled and he resigned before giving way to Bobby Sanders from Appalachia. Sanders had something going and had Lee competitive, Lee had their first and only winning season since '98 during his tenure, but he left after just 3 season to return home to Mississippi. Coomer was hired for one season (not real of the issue as to why they didn't continue with him), 2-8 that year. Palko was then hired after coming down from Maryland and having spent a brief bit away from coaching while teaching in Church Hill. Lee very nearly made the playoffs during his time and won several games, 2nd most to Sanders since Williams' career. But some didn't like his way and thought they should've won more the 2nd time around. Williams returned to the spotlight then after getting a position on the School Board and led the charge in getting Palko removed and bringing in the most recent hire this past year, Martin, who had a long career at Pennington Middle. Most all the middle school staff came along. Pennington had success under him, but that was middle school, not to mention most of those teams were known for just being bigger and more physical than most of their opponents. It will be interesting to see what happens in the following years with Lee. Seems it would highly hypocritical of them to continue with the current staff if they have another bad season. For the most part, for the football program at Lee, its been mostly just misfortune in getting any consistent coaching with a bit of politics getting in the way from time to time like this past year.

 

As for other programs at Lee, basketball has and is still going pretty well. There's up-and-downs but most of the they'll have a good season. Baseball was never really any good at Lee, until a few years ago when now retired Roger Morris came aboard. Its not as good now but they're still doing okay. Softball program is still competitive as usual, a bit of a slide in recent years, but not bad. Track has took a bit of a downturn, I don't think the commitment from the kids is like it used to be. Wrestling is usually competitive as always. Soccer is still a new sport for Lee, so can't say much there. I think for the most part Lee has had the same problems the rest in this area have had in recent years.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Beamerball

[redtiger 1,742]

Thanks for this example, redtiger. Assuming that you are very familiar with Harlan, when did the consolidation take place? How successful were the smaller schools prior to the consolidation?

 

Im not at all familiar with HC. I am very interested in consolidation and the entire process and HC seems to have gotten it right(in every aspect) so I know a little about them. Thanks Beamerball for the info on HC.

[Beamerball 566]

If you're looking for one to model yours after, its definitely Harlan County. Remember, with HC you had to overcome being a place that's one of the poorest counties in the country, where drugs are a big issue, and you've got all the perks with parental issues/politics like most every school around deals with. But the kids just play through it seems, doesn't matter what the jealous adults think. They have a great following too. Anyone whose been over there or has had them travel over here, knows they bring a lot of fans, and they'll up the noise level nicely. As for the sports, obviously they were going to be a great basketball school....its Kentucky, that was known. Some of the other sports were a struggle, and when they first consolidated it showed. Now, just a few years in, they are strong or competitive in just about every sport. The athletic facilities are very nice. They just unveiled the new stadium at the end of the regular season in a big game against Bell County (which they won). That stadium is pretty sharp.

 

You can see pictures of their stadium here....

 

http://www.harlan.k12.ky.us/hchs/hcmages/Sports/Football/Stadium%20Gallery/index.htm

 

The basketball gymnasium is the same way.

 

The school itself is also top notch. You can see some of those on their website banner at the top as it scrolls through the images (or just click on the banner and click through the images to seen them). They've got a shot of the outside and one of the entrance inside at least that I've seen. A good picture of the gymnasium on there too.

 

http://www.harlan.k12.ky.us/hchs/index.html

[MrSocko 136]

Harlan County has one of the best intro.'s for football. Brad Paisley's "you'll never leave Harlan alive" is played while the team hits the field thru the black bear helmet with the smoke on the field. Very cool.

[MrSocko 136]

Consolidation hasn't helped East Ridge in KY. The Warriors have had the benefit of having a good enrollment of 750 when opened in 2003? it's now around 650. I know that Elkhorn City wasn't a big time football school but they wasn't 0-10 and 1-9 every year. Millard and Feds Creek didn't have football teams but they did play basketball. East Ridge's best year has been a 5-5 record in 2010. I don't really know much about the three schools other sports(basketball,baseball,track,etc) but I do know I looked at KHSSAA and they haven't had any state title winners since consolidated.

 

East Ridge is going to drop out of their district next season because I assume they can't compete with the tougher schools. Belfry,Pike Central,Lawrence Co., and Sheldon Clark is a tough slate for anybody but ER isn't competitive with any of the schools.

 

Hurley and Grundy play them because it's a close travel game. I figure it because it's a easy win over a AA school and those points help out at the end of the season.

[redtiger 1,742]

Haysi has placed ER in the past(very close). Elkhorn City football was pretty bad if memory serves me. Bt ER plays in a higher classification than EC did and I think that plays into it, like you said Millard and Feds Creek didnt play football so its basically EC but playing against larger schools.

 

What about the other Pike County consolidated schools and Letcher County Central High School?

[swvacsas2 15]

Elkhorn City actually won a state championship under Jack Hall in the mid 60's. They were a runner up in the early 70s. They had decent teams until the early 80s. Letcher Central and the new Pike schools haven't made any noise in football- Shelby Valley has a state championship in basketball.

 

Some folks here may remember the great Lynch football teams of Ed Miracle. When Lynch got out of the school business they went to Cumberland and then to Harlan County. Lynch won three or four state titles in the late fifties and sixties and I believe lost out on an equal number. They were the Beechwood of their day. I also think Cumberland may have played for a title.

 

Some time ago I mentioned on a thread the results of a survey that a friend of mine conducted for a thesis at UT. It showed that kids who lived 10 miles from a school had a precipitate drop in extracurricular participation. This research was done in the early 70s so gas prices were beginning to be a factor- believe most of the research was done before the '73 embargo. The larger rural consolidated schools had trouble competing. Several of the schools were located in areas not suffering from a demographic crisis or from a prolonged economic downturn- they just suffered from geographic determinism. Compactness of population and proximity to the school governed turnout. The results of consolidation in this five state area seem to bear these conclusions out. The bigger geographical area covered by the school the more problems.

 

It does seem that schools that can develop a proficiency in one sport can do well enough in that sport to overcome some of the disadvantages of geography- but it seems difficult for them to be successful in multiple sports.

[MrSocko 136]

Elkhorn City actually won a state championship under Jack Hall in the mid 60's. They were a runner up in the early 70s. They had decent teams until the early 80s. Letcher Central and the new Pike schools haven't made any noise in football- Shelby Valley has a state championship in basketball.

 

Some folks here may remember the great Lynch football teams of Ed Miracle. When Lynch got out of the school business they went to Cumberland and then to Harlan County. Lynch won three or four state titles in the late fifties and sixties and I believe lost out on an equal number. They were the Beechwood of their day. I also think Cumberland may have played for a title.

 

Some time ago I mentioned on a thread the results of a survey that a friend of mine conducted for a thesis at UT. It showed that kids who lived 10 miles from a school had a precipitate drop in extracurricular participation. This research was done in the early 70s so gas prices were beginning to be a factor- believe most of the research was done before the '73 embargo. The larger rural consolidated schools had trouble competing. Several of the schools were located in areas not suffering from a demographic crisis or from a prolonged economic downturn- they just suffered from geographic determinism. Compactness of population and proximity to the school governed turnout. The results of consolidation in this five state area seem to bear these conclusions out. The bigger geographical area covered by the school the more problems.

 

It does seem that schools that can develop a proficiency in one sport can do well enough in that sport to overcome some of the disadvantages of geography- but it seems difficult for them to be successful in multiple sports.

I was told that Hall runned the "side saddle T" at Elkhorn. I think that is what is was called, I know they said it was an unusual offense. I didn't know they won a state. You mention Beechwood, I would say the people of Pikeville hate Beechwood. I bet Beechwood has cost Pikeville 3 or more state titles. I know for a while during the 90's they would meet deep in the playoffs seem like every year. Beechwood just had their number.

 

Pike County has 3 consolidated schools (Shelby Valley,East Ridge,Pike Central) with enrollments of 650-750 and only one state title in the big 3 sports (Bball,Fball,Baseball). The 2 non-consolidated schools (Belfry,Phelps) and the 1 city school (Pikeville) have numerous state titles and appearances in the big 3 sports.

 

Interesting.