Grundy expected to drop to class A in two years..

[WaveFan09 50]

http://www.tricities.com/tristate/tri/sports.apx.-content-articles-TRI-2007-08-08-0016.html

[hoard 18]

I'm not sure what Bucky is talking about when he says Graham will be "eligible" to drop to A when it goes below 500 students. Graham and Tazewell have been eligible for years now. I guess he's thinking of back in the days when the cutoff for Group A was 500 students but it hasn't been that way since the 1990s.

 

I'm glad to see that at least some have come to their senses on this issue. I'm sick of seeing SWD teams get pounded at the regional and state level by larger schools.

 

The situation is only going to get worse the next two years with the River Ridge moving to Region IV. Sure, Richlands will still do well in Division 3 football, but it's going to be really tough for an SWD school to win a regional title in pretty much any other sport.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

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I'm glad to see that at least some have come to their senses on this issue. I'm sick of seeing SWD teams get pounded at the regional and state level by larger schools.

 

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Sorry, hoard. You lost me with this paragraph. Which SWD schools are getting "pounded" by "larger" schools at the regional and state level?

 

Otherwise, I'm also perplexed about Bucky's references to Graham. Unless they've seen an upswing in enrollment (which is possible), the G-Men have been "playing up" for as long as I can remember. The one variable that could impact the equation for Graham is the imminent closing of Pocahontas. But that's not an issue that will apparently be addressed any time soon.

[GMan 3,569]

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I'm glad to see that at least some have come to their senses on this issue. I'm sick of seeing SWD teams get pounded at the regional and state level by larger schools.

 

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Sorry, hoard. You lost me with this paragraph. Which SWD schools are getting "pounded" by "larger" schools at the regional and state level?

 

Otherwise, I'm also perplexed about Bucky's references to Graham. Unless they've seen an upswing in enrollment (which is possible), the G-Men have been "playing up" for as long as I can remember. The one variable that could impact the equation for Graham is the imminent closing of Pocahontas. But that's not an issue that will apparently be addressed any time soon.

 

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Hoard is dead on...once Region IV teams (especially the SWD and old Highlands teams) get to the State level (State Semis) of competition in most sports, they get hammered and sent home early. There have been a few rare teams from Region IV that have gone against this trend but very few.

 

As of this year, the cutoff between Class A and Class AA was an enrollment of 737 students...Lee was allowed to play down due to travel hardship so you can not realisticly count their enrollment as the cutoff point. Graham, Grundy, and Tazewell all fall under that number...I know that Graham has played up since I was in high school 20-some years ago. The closing of Pocahontas will have no affect on either Graham or Tazewell as far as increasing either's enrollment enough to make them legitimate sized AA schools. (Tazewell 615, Graham 560, Pocy 108)

[RichlandsAlum 678]

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Hoard is dead on...once Region IV teams (especially the SWD and old Highlands teams) get to the State level (State Semis) of competition in most sports, they get hammered and sent home early. There have been a few rare teams from Region IV that have gone against this trend but very few.

 

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Forgive me for being very dense, because I'm still not grasping the argument about enrollment. Don't get me wrong, I think the current classification system needs a complete overhaul. But I'm not buying the argument that Region IV is at a competitive disadvantage because our enrollments are comparatively lower.

 

I understand that teams from SW Virginia have struggled at the state level of competition in Group AA. However, in my mind, part of this can be explained statistically. In terms of probability, and assuming that all teams are fairly competitive at that level of play, any given team from any given region has a 1 in 4 chance of winning a state championship to begin with. Historically, looking at a geographical distribution of teams that have won state titles, it seems to me that our region has actually fared pretty well (or at least equitably in terms of statistical probability).

 

I suppose there are certain programs that are competitive on a state level on a consistent basis. For argument's sake, I'll refer to Salem. One key to the Spartans' success seems to be the community's investment in facilities. That's a function of economic resources. Enrollment plays into the equation, but it's not the key factor.

 

The way that local schools are funded disproportionately in Virginia is well documented. Is that the real issue here?

 

I'm either blowing things way out of proportion, or I'm simply dense. Could be both, frankly. But I'd really like to understand this argument about enrollment and statewide competitiveness.

[hoard 18]

I think people tend to look only at football when it comes to reclassification. Richlands may be doing well in football at present, which is great, but remember there are other sports to consider.

 

Enrollment matters greatly in high school sports. Why does every state have classifications based on school size? When you have a larger school, you have more athletes to choose from, more depth, and generally more kids who can concentrate on one sport year-round.

 

Bassett and Magna Vista have over 1200 students. Five of the six River Ridge schools have over 1000. Tazewell has 615 and Grundy and Graham have even less.

 

I would like to see how many regional and state playoff wins the SWD has over the past, say five years, compared to other districts. I can assure you the number of wins would have been much higher had those schools been playing others of relatively equal size.

 

I also think playing in Region D would be better from the fans' standpoint. Imagine a regional tournament at a central location in SWVa. with two SWD teams plus Gate City, Lebanon, Powell Valley, JJ Kelly, Honaker, etc.

[CougarFan 10]

Region IV suffers an enrollment disadvantage against other regions, when it comes to football. And despite this, they have fared very well in football.

 

But their enrollment disadvantage grows even larger with no division splits in the other sports. And they haven't fared nearly as well in these sports.

[redtiger 1,742]

when grundy tazewell and graham drop to A which is going to happen unless of course VA moves to a 5A system(haha) what district will they join, has to be the BDD?

[Counts 156]

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when grundy tazewell and graham drop to A which is going to happen unless of course VA moves to a 5A system(haha) what district will they join, has to be the BDD?

 

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BDD makes the most sence as things stand now BUT I almost look for several districts to realine themselfs if more that one more SWD team drops

[FatBoy 10]

battlin wits with him is like going to a nife fight with a tootsie roll

[RichlandsAlum 678]

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I think people tend to look only at football when it comes to reclassification.

 

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OK, let's switch to baseball. Virginia High won several AA state titles (and finished as runner-up twice) before dropping to Group A.

 

Historically, two of the most successful AA boys' basketball programs in the state are R.E. Lee-Staunton and Martinsville. Neither are particularly large in terms of enrollment.

 

Close to home, Carroll County proves the fallacy of larger enrollment providing a greater number of athletes to choose from. Based on that argument, the Cavaliers should dominate the SWD in every sport. There are any number of variables that affect success in high school athletics at any given place and any given time. For whatever reason, the SWD hasn't historically been competitive in certain sports (like boys' basketball, for example). SWD teams have overachieved in certain others (like football and wrestling).

 

It does make sense to group schools together based on size. Unfortunately, there will always be some discrepancies, even in Group AA which (theoretically) is the most balanced classification. The single biggest driver of enrollment right now is an unfortunate trend in Virginia demographics -- pretty much every other area of the Commonwealth is growing in terms of population, while the overwhelming majority of Southwest Virginia is not.

 

There's really no reason to belabor the point, so I'll give the dead horse a break for now.

[shanefive 11]

I beleive that Grundy will be in the BDD and Tazewell in the New CMD and if Graham were to come down as well I think they would want to be in either the TRD or the CMD as well? I said it last year when they formed the CMD and let Lee in it, that before too long everybody in SWVA would be single A, unless the VHSL changes to a 4-A or 5-A system. If that doesn't happen then the entire SWD will just drop together and be in the Region D?

[hoard 18]

OK, I have to get one more kick in on the horse

 

I'm not arguing that the smaller schools cannot be competetive, but the ones who are very successful in a particular sport are the exception, not the rule. For every small school that consistently wins in a particular sport there are multiple others of the same size who do NOT succeed against large schools but would be much more competitive against ones of similar size.

 

Look across the state and tell me on an annual basis how many schools with an enrollment of 500 to 700 (in both A and AA) can compete with schools of over 1200 students across the board in MOST SPORTS? There are a select few, but for the most part, the ones who can't far outnumber the ones who can.

 

The Region III representative in the Division 4 state football semi-finals was a much larger school than the Region IV rep in virtually every season post-split. In most of those years, the Division 4 rep from Region IV would have been Division 3 in any other region.

 

Do you know how many times the Region IV rep won the D-4 matchup following Richlands' win over Salem in 1992? ZERO.

 

Look at how many SWVa schools dropped from AA to A in the last 20 years. Do you think any of these schools dropped for a reason other than being competitive in sports?

 

Narrows

Giles

George Wythe

Radford

Gate City

Lebanon

Patrick Henry

John Battle

 

In West Virginia, why do you think Bluefield and Mount View dropped down to AA? Sure, there have been a few years when Bluefield would have competed for an AAA title in football or basketball, but do you think they would have been anywhere near as successful in AAA as AA?

 

If you notice, a lot of the former AA schools mentioned have either won state championships or been very successful in MULTIPLE sports since moving down. Again,do you think they would have been anywhere near as successful had they stayed in AA?

 

Plus, I don't see any traditional Group A-sized athletic powers pounding down the door to move up to AA. Why? Because they know they can be more successful against schools of their own size in Group A!

 

As for the examples of VHS baseball and Martinsville and RE Lee basketball, they are all in independent cities with small geographic boundaries to draw from, which increases participation from youth league levels on up, not to mention the fact they all had VHSL Hall of Fame coaches like Eddie Icenhour, Husky Hall and Paul Hatcher who laid the foundation for strong programs. Those coaches aren't exactly a dime a dozen at the smaller schools.

 

If V-High was kicking so much butt in AA in all sports, why in the world did they decide to drop?

 

I guess it all boils down to one thing---when you consider all sports, would the SWD schools be more successful against schools of their own size, or would they be more successful against schools twice their size? I think the answer is pretty clear.

 

Tazewell, Graham and Grundy are all in the lowest third of VHSL schools in enrollment, while Richlands and Marion may be in two years. Therefore, Group A is where they need (or will need) to be.

[RichlandsAlum 678]

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Look at how many SWVa schools dropped from AA to A in the last 20 years. Do you think any of these schools dropped for a reason other than being competitive in sports?

 

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Yep. I think they dropped primarily for reasons of economics. The competitiveness issue makes for nice conversations among fanatics such as ourselves. But I can state with a fair degree of certainty that decisions by administrators are motivated primarily by $$$.

 

Overstating the obvious, there are tons more Group A schools in close proximity for most schools in Southwest Virginia than any other classification. For scheduling purposes, it makes a lot of sense for eligible schools to "drop." In addition to reducing travel times and costs, they can also retain the option of playing any remaining nearby AA schools and get a nice ratings boost if they can win those games.

 

Graham, Richlands, and Tazewell (and to a lesser extent, Grundy) have pretty much pledged to hang together to the greatest extent practical. Once Richlands meets the criteria for Group A, I'd expect to see all of those schools "drop." The VHSL could alter the situation drastically if it were to overhaul its outdated classification system (by moving to a four-tiered system, for example). But otherwise, my crystal ball tells me that the only remaining AA teams in SW Virginia will be those within 10 minutes of I-81. The only question is when.

[hhstigerfan 12]

They'll have to do something when Richlands, Grundy, Graham, Tazewell, and Marion eventually drop. Group AA is small enough as it is with 30 something AA schools playing up in AAA and then you would have to move more teams out of Region III and/or Region II into Region IV to make things more equal number-wise and put Abingdon and Carroll Co. in the River Ridge. The VHSL is a mess as it is with the situation Group AA is in with the alignment of the regions and the low number of schools in Group AA, and then throw in the size discrepancy between Region B and the rest of Group A and this ridiculous divisional system we have in football and will soon have in basketball. Instead of just doing a complete over-haul of the whole state, every time a new problem creeps up they just cook up come half assed way to stick a band aid on the problem and move on.

[hoard 18]

I have often wondered what Group A would look like if/when the SWD schools drop. Region D might be a little too big to accomdate four more AA schools dropping down (I assume Marion would try to get in the Hogoheegee since they are geographically central to everyone else in that district).

 

If the SWD schools did end up in Region D, I could see them redistricting to keep the larger schools together in two districts and the smaller ones in the other two.

 

Maybe something to the extent of:

 

SWD: Grundy, Tazewell, Richlands, Graham, Lebanon

CMD: Gate City, John Battle, Lee, VHS, Powell Valley, JJ Kelly

BDD: Hurley, Haysi, Twin Valley, Council, Ervinton, Honaker, Haysi, Clintwood, Pound

LPD/CD: Coeburn, St. Paul, Castlewood, Appy, Burton, Twin Springs, Thomas Walker, Rye Cove

 

I think that might keep the smaller schools happy, especially if more sports begin going to divisional play. They might have the disadvantage of being in a larger district but at least they would not have to compete with the larger schools as often (if at all).

 

If they redistricted based on geography, there are any number of possibilities.

 

 

One other thing to consider, especially with expanded playoffs and divisional play is the potential of having more than four districts in a region.

 

Then there is the problem of what to do with Abingdon. You know they would fight tooth and nail if they were forced into the River Ridge. It wouldn't be much of an issue with Carroll County, but with Abingdon, their two closest district opponents would be Carroll and Pulaski, both of which are about 1 1/2 hours by bus.

 

That would open up the possibility of a Lee-like "play down" scenario, or the creation of another combined district like the Eastern Shore.

[GMan 3,569]

Hoard,

 

That's not a bad setup. The only change I would make is moving Honaker to the SWD. They already play (or have played in recent years) Richlands, Lebanon and Tazewell and their enrollment isn't much different than Grundy's. Plus, it would make the Lebanon/Honaker rivalry mean a little bit more, maybe. Also, that would give the "big school" districts 6 teams each and the "small school" districts 8 teams each.

[Lance 228]

I think Honaker in the SWD would be a great idea, the problem that the SWD teams run in to is schedules...Grundy has a hard time just finding people who will play them each year...I'd like to see Twin Valley playing grundy again as it was a good rivalry when they were Garden...and Grundy's level of play has dropped off the past few years where it would be a good game now between them and TV and Hurley...if they were Single A then it wouldn't hurt them in points as bad either.

[HomeTownFan 10]

Why is it that Grundy's football interest has dropped off?

At one time they did field a decent team?

Is their wrestling program still as good as it use to be?

Just wondering

[Lance 228]

they have no feeder program at all...over the past few years there has been nothing but a clusterf*ck below the HS level...you have 5th and 6th graders standing around playing in the dirt on the sideleines with hot wheels during "games" while the 8th and 9th graders pounded away on other teams 6th and 7th graders and sometimes 8th graders...then most of those kids that never got to play and were allowed to just goof around didn't want to play once they got up in to high school...there was zero interest...most of them either went to just wrestling or quit sports...you have one program...Riverside...and thats it...back in the day there were several elementary schools and a lot more kids got to actually play the game and learn it along the way...the last bunch of those kids to go through were the kids in the Marcum Bros. group about 3 years ago...since that point you have had nothing but a group of kids that had to learn the game once they got to the varsity level...some of them had never played at all...so you get the current situation...i think they have made some changes now and hopefully things will improve, but it will take time...and lots of it.

[hoard 18]

You are right about Honaker fitting into the SWD. For some reason I had it in my head their enrollment was closer to 300 not 400.

 

For that matter, Coeburn should fall into the Clinch Mountain District under this setup, rather than the Cumberland/LPD. That would work out perfectly for football as there would be 13 schools in each division, with Council making 14 D-1 schools in basketball or any other sport going to two divisions.

 

I'm not a fan of the three-class, divisional setup we have now. But if we can't have a four-class system I think divisional play in all sports, especially in Class A is a somewhat reasonable compromise (at least until you get to the state level when the large Region B schools get to play in Division 1).

 

IMO the biggest drawback to divisional play in basketball (and anything else for that matter) is that too many teams will make the regional tournament.

 

The great thing about aligning schools based on enrollment is the qualification for the region tournament is pretty cut and dried--i.e. take the top two from each district, etc.

[grundysports 10]

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they have no feeder program at all...over the past few years there has been nothing but a clusterf*ck below the HS level...you have 5th and 6th graders standing around playing in the dirt on the sideleines with hot wheels during "games" while the 8th and 9th graders pounded away on other teams 6th and 7th graders and sometimes 8th graders...then most of those kids that never got to play and were allowed to just goof around didn't want to play once they got up in to high school...there was zero interest...most of them either went to just wrestling or quit sports...you have one program...Riverside...and thats it...back in the day there were several elementary schools and a lot more kids got to actually play the game and learn it along the way...the last bunch of those kids to go through were the kids in the Marcum Bros. group about 3 years ago...since that point you have had nothing but a group of kids that had to learn the game once they got to the varsity level...some of them had never played at all...so you get the current situation...i think they have made some changes now and hopefully things will improve, but it will take time...and lots of it.

 

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this is mainly true but that wont be the case no more 8th and 9th graders will be playin there own games and 6th and 7th grade is back in little league like i think it should be

[Lance 228]

thats what i meant by "i think its changed this year"...and I think that's a step in the right direction, however there is a lot more that needs to happen before you see the program start to turn around at the lower levels...it would be nice for a place to start them out in about 3rd grade or so and actually have some sort of organized league like there was, but the population just isn't what it was back in the day.

[bigcotton 40]

I certainly hope its changed. The talent has def. dropped off the last few years, and they players keep getting smaller. i was at the hospital today and saw the bus go past and watched them walk into the field house, and theres not many good sized kids on the team, maybe a few decent sized kids, but noone with the size of a albert childress, jeremy ward, bobby ratliff, matt sloan, matt lee and myself in the early 2000's id love to see them get some decent sized guys. But i havent been following the team close this year or last year for that matter, so i dont know how good they are, but even though they dont have any big guys, if you got the talent, size can be overcome. I just wish grundy could get back to its former glory, im going to try my best to be at every home game and the close away games. Seeing those kids walk off that bus and into the fieldhouse brought back alot of good memories, and i swear, even now id still trade everything i own to go back and play for grundy again. Best of luck to em. WIth that said. Grundy, t-well, graham and most of the swd, have been at the enrollment to drop down to single a for years, heck every year i was playing there was talk about dropping down, but it never happend. Dont think it will anytime in the near future, but you never know. im usually wrong bout stuff like that. just my 2 cents, if anyone reads this.

[cowboyup 10]

Grundy needs to play in the cumberland. I think they would finish 3rd.