Transfers/Holdbacks

[Observer 78]

What are everybody's thoughts on high school transfers and holdbacks?  I know it has been happening for years but with my kids getting older the topic gets brought up often.  I go back and forth on it and can't make up my mind either way.  I know my kids aren't going to be standouts or play professionally, but I would like for them to at least have a chance to see the field/court when they get to high school.  

[PackDadx4 11]

If the transfer is legit due to parents relocating then I have no issues with transferring. The problem I have is when high school coaches actively recruit kids from other locations. My daughter has been contacted about transferring. What a coincidence that it’s the same school that made the newspaper! There is no loyalty to your home school anymore and it is sad to me. 

[sixcat 2,920]

#GetYourPopcornReady.GIF

[F@lcon 47]

I actually have mixed feelings on hold backs.  IMO, this would be hard to regulate because there are other reasons to hold back besides sports and if you can't really prove the reasons, it's not fair to punish a kid for this.   I personally know a couple kids over the years that have been held back for more of a maturity issue.  Some birthdays could have kids graduating when they are barely 17 years old.   

As for transfers.   It's been a questionable practice for a long time.   Some schools are so obsessed with winning that they are now openly recruiting because the VHSL doesn't have the balls to do anything about it.   Why would you think the VHSL would address a transfer situation when they openly allow teams like Liberty Christian and John Marshall play public schools and they are well known recruitment schools.  It's not about right/wrong with them because they only care about the $$$

[PackDadx4 11]

I don’t have as much of an issue with holding a child back. Especially if it is in regards to maturity, graduating age or academic reasons. I do have some concerns over doing it for athletic reasons. If the child has the abilities it will show well before 17. Unfortunately I think this is simply where we are at in society now. I don’t see it ever going back. 

[sixcat 2,920]

The transfer ship sailed when LCA sued VHSL for inclusion. Very little VHSL can do to curtail transfers now. Punishing a "normal" high school for something clearly allowed by LCA or JM would open VHSL up to further litigation should a school choose to take that route, I would imagine.

Holding back has a lot more downside than people are willing to admit. Several scientific research studies have clearly concluded holding kids back has lasting harmful emotional effects and doesn't increase student achievement. One such study by John Pijanowski concluded "holdbacks were less likely to be enrolled in a postsecondary education program, received lower education/employment status ratings, were paid less per hour, and received poorer employment competence ratings at age 20 in comparison to on-time graduates.". Pijanowski was a Fulbright Scholar, played basketball at Brown University and has a PhD from Cornell. 

My daughter is the youngest senior at Galax and attends Southwest Virginia Governor School in Pulaski. She is currently finishing up a science fair project for Virginia Junior Academy of Sciences on this very subject. I borrowed her knowledge for the above paragraph. She was awarded second place in the psychology category at VJAS last year for her study of human behavior. She will graduate at 17 next spring, just as her mother and father did 30 years ago.

 

[F@lcon 47]

Studies or not,  I still don't agree that it's the same for all kids.   I graduated and started college at 17.  I was also living on my own working full time and primarily supporting myself at that age.   My family did not have money nor the means to help with my education.   I really struggled for my first 2 semesters and ended up repeating a few classes because of my grades.   I do believe if I had been another year older that I may have been more equipped to handle all those responsibilities. 

[Tigerman10 222]

42 minutes ago, sixcat said:

The transfer ship sailed when LCA sued VHSL for inclusion. Very little VHSL can do to curtail transfers now. Punishing a "normal" high school for something clearly allowed by LCA or JM would open VHSL up to further litigation should a school choose to take that route, I would imagine.

Holding back has a lot more downside than people are willing to admit. Several scientific research studies have clearly concluded holding kids back has lasting harmful emotional effects and doesn't increase student achievement. One such study by John Pijanowski concluded "holdbacks were less likely to be enrolled in a postsecondary education program, received lower education/employment status ratings, were paid less per hour, and received poorer employment competence ratings at age 20 in comparison to on-time graduates.". Pijanowski was a Fulbright Scholar, played basketball at Brown University and has a PhD from Cornell. 

 

 

I’m curious as to if this study had a breakdown between male/female.

 

Anecdotally, I would see holding back as being more detrimental to females since they typically mature faster. 

[sixcat 2,920]

53 minutes ago, F@lcon said:

Studies or not,  I still don't agree that it's the same for all kids.   I graduated and started college at 17.  I was also living on my own working full time and primarily supporting myself at that age.   My family did not have money nor the means to help with my education.   I really struggled for my first 2 semesters and ended up repeating a few classes because of my grades.   I do believe if I had been another year older that I may have been more equipped to handle all those responsibilities. 

I began working a full time job the summer after my freshman year of high school and haven't stopped since. I worked the majority of those final three years of high school on 2nd shift with the last several months being 3rd shift. I never missed school and my grades didn't suffer as a result. It meant I had to give up high school sports beyond my freshman year of high school but it was what it was. I was wholly self-sufficient by age 16, living on my own the majority of my last year of high school. 

I chose to take the military route after high school in an effort to pay for college and have some stability. Life wasn't easy for me growing up. A family full of alcoholics and drug addicts tend to leave a trail of destruction behind them. I knew at a very young age, I needed to get myself out or I would repeat the cycle. There is no greater motivator in life than poverty!

By the time I turned 18, I had graduated high school, finished Basic Training, and was a few weeks into Advanced Individual Training. Between the training I received in the military and the education I picked up along the way, I have been in this career for over 25 years. I wouldn't change anything. I don't believe I would have been as motivated or successful in overcoming my circumstances had I been held back. I think holding back has become a crutch that ultimately keeps feet firmly planted on the ground and never allows someone to spread their wings and fly.  I will concede, there are exceptions. But nowhere near as many as are currently being held back!!!

 

22 minutes ago, Tigerman10 said:

I’m curious as to if this study had a breakdown between male/female.

https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ973826.pdf

[F@lcon 47]

Not everyone has a motivator like you had either.   Quite a few kids go through school being supported financially at least with a roof over their heads and food on the table.   Other than summers, I didn't work until after I graduated.   I played all sports and graduated with a 4.0.  

Then by that August I have classes during the day, work evenings and weekends, and have to learn how to manage money and pay bills all at once.   I am proud to say that overall I did succeed with some bumps and bruises along the way,  but I definitely don't think I was ready for that life at 17.

Like I said before, I think it all boils down to individual circumstances. 

 Holding back for sports has really been a major thing in far swva for a long time.   It was a well known thing in the 80's with schools like Grundy, Richlands, and Gate City.  By the 90's most schools were seeing hold backs at some level.   Some schools in our county have cracked down on it at the school level but now parents are just taking them to a private school or home schooling for a year then re-enrolling and repeating a grade (before 9th grade to be eligible).  It may be a stretch but I also think the emergence of travel sports to the level it is today has been a motivator for holding back as well.   Travel ball leagues are creating some monster parents who think that little Johnny is going pro because he hit a homerun last week in the 10th usssa world series this year. 

[sixcat 2,920]

I guess that's kind-of the point I'm trying to make. Lots and lots of kids never have expectations placed upon them at home, especially in relation to the classroom. They learn to skate through life with little to no responsibility and put very little effort into the classroom. Public high school is so incredibly watered down and easy. Without having been challenged, kids never develop the skills necessary to properly prepare to succeed. Failing to prepare is preparing to fail. They get to college, face adversity for the first time, and run home and never leave.

Having faced a little adversity in high school, you learned how to grind your way through. With a few bumps and bruises along the way but you persevered. Maybe you could have had an easier path had you been held back. But it's just as likely you would never have learned to grind being held back and you wouldn't be where you are right now.

[RadCat 26]

My personal belief is that the only reason to hold a kid back is for a maturity or intellectual reason.   Sports is not a reason to delay.   At the time you are making that decision you have very little idea of how they will compete.  The other side is that there are prep schools for most sports so if the kid needs another year to develop athletically, then they can get it that way IMO.

[Liam McPoyle 1,863]

My wife and I sent our daughter to kindergarten on schedule, but held our son back. Our daughter's the oldest and was ready to begin. Our son, at the time, was small and much less mature. I left the decision to my wife who's an elementary ed counselor.  She said some kids, particularly boys, are not always ready and can benefit with an extra year; however, holding a child back who's clearly ready can be detrimental. The different approach worked for us. Both kids were academically successful, played sports, and graduated college in three years (none of which I can take credit).

Looking back, I believe I would've benefitted from an extra year.  Like Sixcat, I graduated high school when I was 17 and enlisted. Unlike him, I was immature and not fully prepared for adulthood.  After eight years in the military, I finally began college and didn't graduate until I was 30.  

 

[TheDuke 13]

Mac McClung was held back. He turned 19 January of his senior year.  It obviously helps some boys tremendously. You see huge changes in some boys from 17 to 18 to 19. 

[SXSW 557]

We held our son back but athletics had nothing to do with it. It was all about maturity and being constantly behind in his studies. It worked well for him, he is 30 has three college degrees and makes 120k a year and has a beautiful wife, who had her masters at 24, and the best grandson that has ever lived! Holding him back accomplished everything it was suppose to do!  

[sixcat 2,920]

9 hours ago, TheDuke said:

Mac McClung was held back. He turned 19 January of his senior year.  It obviously helps some boys tremendously. You see huge changes in some boys from 17 to 18 to 19. 

Steven Peoples graduated high school at 17. Dominating kids as many as two years older than him in the process. It works both ways.

I don't have the benefit of having a son. Maybe my perspective would change if I did. My daughters are both at, or very near the top of their class. The oldest is in Governor School and has applied to multiple Ivy League schools along with Smith. She is in-line to be valedictorian/salutatorian and has a 4.71 GPA while taking all college credit classes. She will graduate next spring with 54 college credits and a college math minor (should it transfer). The youngest doesn't have an interest in Governor School but she is in the top 5 of her freshman class and is taking college credit classes already through WCC. 

[Elder statesman 22]

There was also a couple of "Freshmen" phenoms last year at Central and Eastside on the ladies side who were both turning 16 while other freshmen are 14-15.  It makes them sound so much better when everyone is saying they are just a freshman but their maturity and strengths give them an advantage over other kids in the same grade.

You guys could argue the merits all you want but 95% of the time a kid is held back it is strictly for athletics.  McClung was great either way but if he, Ervin, and Dean aren't held back then they probably don't fully accomplish everything they did.  Especially his overall scoring record.  

[F@lcon 47]

All of these are definitely great players. You cannot argue that each one of the gate city boys got better each year as I am sure the girls will as well.   I think that also makes it obvious that being 19 as a senior would make you better than if you are 17-18 as a senior especially on the boys side where bodies fully mature a little later.

[S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE 239]

regardless of why each decide to hold back, another guaranteed year at home with mom and dad is always welcome. they're only young once, and it may be the only tool to hold on to that for just a little while longer.  the world ain't the same as it used to be.  it's a lot scarier now with the craziness you read in the paper daily.

[Observer 78]

35 minutes ago, S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE said:

regardless of why each decide to hold back, another guaranteed year at home with mom and dad is always welcome. they're only young once, and it may be the only tool to hold on to that for just a little while longer.  the world ain't the same as it used to be.  it's a lot scarier now with the craziness you read in the paper daily.

I was wondering when someone would bring this up.  I wonder how many parents have held their kids back just simply to have them at home one more year.

[rabidbeaver 90]

I got held back because I was just a dumbass, plain and simple...lol

[BSG Historian 5]

How much money did holding back cost Mac McClung? At least 100 grand? Probably more... Holding back should only happen if the child has a developmental issue, not for sports. I say that as someone who lives in a town where they hold back all the time. Oddly enough, the most successful sport (XC) has multiple state titles and doesn't hold back...

[F@lcon 47]

In all honesty, mcclung probably would have had a harder time making it big without holding back.   The senior season propelled him into the national spotlight with all the overtime media following and setting multiple scoring records.   Not sure Georgetown would have come looking if not for that attention. 

[Backpack 28]

Holding back is personal choice.   The recruiting business is another story, but I guess if you coincidentally work in real estate you can always find homes for whoever you want. 

[tornado99 345]

This is a topic that I question myself constantly and enjoy reading each perspective. I acknowledge it is a personal choice. My opinion, is like any system it is abused for the wrong reasons. I believe for most many priorities are misplaced causing those abuses. My stereotypical example is that we overestimate our child’s abilities, combining with a desire to get any edge to compete athletically for the glory of earning a scholarship and/or raising the next state championship team. This leads to endless travel ball and strategic holding back to create said all-star teams. Next if unhappy or we just need one more player, we go to the highest bidder or recruit the missing link. I guess I say all this to say that this is probably the extreme case of making the sport the priority and not being clear about abilities. That might be a good path for the outliers and top 5 percent. 
on the flip side any of the practices done alone for the right reasons, maturity, academics, etc, can be a good thing for your child. I know mine aren’t one size fits all.