BHC article: SWVA football decline

[Beamerball 566]

http://www.tricities.com/sports/article_d2120620-4697-11e3-bdb7-001a4bcf6878.html

 

 

:D

 

“We have hired superintendents and administrators at these schools that were frustrated athletes,†Robbins said. “They couldn’t make it when they were in high school, and so they come back and hire John Jones as an English teacher and have him help the football team when he’s never played the game. That’s killing us.â€

[Deleted Account 5,203]

That's probably the weakest reason in the whole article. However, I think the article does make many great points: population decline and dwindling youth programs among them.

 

I think there are two points not made that may be the strongest of all. The decline is so stark because as SWVA schools are losing population, the rest of Virginia is gaining it in significant numbers. It's why the tide has turned so sharply. Our former competitors out east outnumber is 2:1 and 3:1 in many instances.

 

Second, SWVA strength and conditioning programs lag woefully behind modern conditioning on the large part. It's not enough to lift and hit sleds anymore. You need resistance training. You need plyometrics. It's not an accident that Bluefield is just trashing everybody. Bluefield does those things. Just very few others do.

[Bearcat Bob 491]

With the new 6 classes, there will not be nearly as much disparity in enrollment per classification. As far as strength training goes, SWVA players used to be "all day strong" as Grandpa called it.  They worked on farms; loading hay, raising tobacco, cattle, etc.  Even the most of rural areas have little of that activity now.  So weight training/conditioning is very important. 

[jblank 39]

I hate to say this, but I actually might have to disagree a bit with Mr. Robbins. I don't think the drop off is as bad as it is being portrayed. I've been watching high school football for over 30 years (I am 39 now) and I think as far as the quality of football goes, it isn't that far off where it has always been. Also, unlike 30 years ago, more teams are throwing the ball some, which I think it testament to the fact that the Quarterback play, if anything, has maybe improved.

 

Nobody doubts that population numbers might have an impact, but when 15+ years ago, teensie-tiny schools in SWVA were trotting out rosters of 25 kids (or less) something needed to happen. If anything, more consolidation might be a good thing and benefit the schools athletic programs and budgets.

[Jethro 113]

It's nothing else other than kids now are lazy. All the huge kids are walking the halls, playing call of duty, and eating chips. You wouldn't believe the kids who could be D1 prospects that walk the halls at all these high schools.

[barondawg77 115]

Let's not forget about today's athletes that specialize in one sport. I know a certain school that has a pretty good baseball program, but those kids don't play other sports. Small schools need to share athletes to be successful.

[coachm 21]

Watching football for for over 35 years and I am near 50 the article was good. I think Coach Robbins is correct on every area. SOL testing has scared adminstrators into hiring what is perceived as great teachers. Outside of PE the best teachers are the men coaching football in my opinion. The demenads of teaching coupled with coaching long hours has caused many good coahces to stop.

As far as strength training I would have to disagree I think strength in not the problem speed is. Check the times from track meets 15 years ago to today, not even close. The kids we see around here on friday nights are big strong kids for the most part.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

I hate to say this, but I actually might have to disagree a bit with Mr. Robbins. I don't think the drop off is as bad as it is being portrayed. I've been watching high school football for over 30 years (I am 39 now) and I think as far as the quality of football goes, it isn't that far off where it has always been. Also, unlike 30 years ago, more teams are throwing the ball some, which I think it testament to the fact that the Quarterback play, if anything, has maybe improved.

 

Nobody doubts that population numbers might have an impact, but when 15+ years ago, teensie-tiny schools in SWVA were trotting out rosters of 25 kids (or less) something needed to happen. If anything, more consolidation might be a good thing and benefit the schools athletic programs and budgets.

 

The facts don't back up your assertion.

 

Since the new millenium, only 3 teams from Region IV made the Division 3 title game: Graham (2001), Richlands (2005, 2006, 2007, 2010), and Northside (2009).  Northside is from outside SWVA.  Graham's and Richlands's record is 1-4.  In 12 years, you had had 1 SWVA Champion of Division 3.  But for a blocked field goal, that number's 0. 

 

Since the new millenium, the following teams from the West made the Division 2 title game: Floyd County (2001, 2008), George Wythe (2002), Gate City (2003, 2007, 2010), Powell Valley (2004), Giles (2005, 2006), Gretna (2007, 2008, 2010, 2011), and Radford (2009).  Gretna is from outside SWVA.  Gretna has a 3-1 mark in the Division 2 title game.  Everyone else is 4-6, with Gate City responsible for 2 of those wins.

 

Since the new millenium, the following teams from the West made the Division 1 title game: Bath County (2001, 2003), Appalachia (2002), J.I. Burton (2004, 2005, 2006, 2009), Clintwood (2007, 2008, 2011), Eastern Montgomery (2010), Galax (2011), George Wythe (2012), Honaker (2012).  Bath County is from outside SWVA, and Eastern Montgomery is arguable, but I will include them for discussion's sake.  SWVA teams are 2-9, and that's mainly because a SWVA team had to win, because it was West #1 v. West #2.  Setting those games aside, SWVA teams are 0-7 against the East.  The damning statistic is that a SWVA team did not even SCORE in the Division 1 title game until 2006.  The East outscored SWVA 316-115 in those 7 games, including the 70-0 massacre Appalachia suffered.

 

In the best possible light, you have a very select few from SWVA being even passable at a state level.  If you're keeping count, exactly TWO teams from SWVA have won multiple state titles in this millenium: George Wythe (2002, 2012...ten years apart even then) and Gate City (2003, 2010...seven years apart).  Richlands got there four times, but was very underwhelming in all 4 (and yes, I'm counting that 29-28 win in 2006 against a 9-5 team underwhelming).  J.I. Burton got Ivan Drago'd four times. 

[RichlandsAlum 678]

Personally, I'm finding myself fairly ambivalent with regard to this article.  While the change in demographics for Southwest Virginia has produced some fairly obvious outcomes, I'm not convinced that the area has ever really been a hotbed of individual talent or that the current players are appreciably "smaller" or "slower" than their historical counterparts.  Speaking from pure ignorance here, but other than the Jones brothers how many of Robbins' players went on to play college ball at the highest level?

 

Furthermore, from a matter of historical perspective, AA teams from Southwest Virginia never performed very well beyond the regional level in postseason until the initial expansion of the playoff system beginning in 1986.  Group A teams fared far better, but this can be explained by the fact that the smallest classification has always been the most equitable from a competitive standpoint and the geographic distribution of smaller schools statewide has always skewed westward.

 

Interesting read overall, but the only real takeaway from my perspective was that Coach Robbins obviously has a personal axe to grind with some "frustrated athletes" in or near Big Stone Gap.  Or he is an unheralded genius in the field of eugenics. 

[redtiger 1,740]

Good numbers UVAO

 

It has to be kept in mind that Graham was playing up for many of those years, they would have had a couple of nice runs in D2. If Graham, Gate City and Grundy would have dropped when their numbers would have allowed it some very good Clintwood and Haysi teams would have been in D1 instead of D2, making D1 much higher in quality. That could have helped SWVAs overall record. There were some really good Clintwood teams that just couldn't get past Powell Valley or Gate City.

 

Since the schools have been playing where they belong SWVAs record has been much better, especially in D1/A, as we all know 4 for 4 in the state semi-finals under the new playoff format, I would look at that as 4 victories against nonSWVA schools.

 

I really don't think SWVA players are overall smaller than before, Clintwood produced 2 of the biggest line in SWVA history in '10 and '11, and their lines before that weren't small by any means(neither is this years). Not to mention in '11 their FB/RBs were  240, 220, 200. Definitely not small. Honaker has a big OL this season but they are really on par with where they always have been. Haysi has been on the small side for several years but '02-'06 the OLs were pretty big (02 was 180  280  250  350  310, with a 210 TE and a 240 FB - 05 every OLineman was over 240). I would think the Union OLs since their existence were larger than the OLs during the "glory days" of PV or Appalachia. Speed is where SWVA is behind(as we have discussed before)

 

and Phil Robbins is an asshole. Always has been, always will be.

[sportsfan 21]

Another take on the facts provided by those above and by Phil Robbins is that SWVA is actually "Over achieving" with less.  Phil said, "Now we have smaller and slower kids that never would have played varsity 13 years ago," and that statement provides a basis for my over achieving suggestion. The only thing Phil Robbins left out in his description of the kids of today is that their dumber and uglier (insert tonuge in cheek).  I understand the dwindling population theory and I can buy this premise.  His comparison of the physical attributes reminds me of when grandpa used to say we had to walk five miles to school in two foot of snow barefooted...we were tough back in the day...you young folks are soft.  Moreover, it's human nature to remember the past and assign more importance to those times (at times this is reality).  I'll bet in 20 years we'll find a similar article with some old ball coach espousing the same stuff...save this article and pull it out as it's template.  

[87Tiger 62]

The whole article is one-sided by one former coach, who IMO has always been a prick. He showed his arse when Honaker went into Bullet Park in 1988 and beat them. Interview more than one coach and get their perspective on their feelings about how the sport is. No team can continue to self-sustain year in, year out. Yes, the larger communities may be able to somewhat, but there's always going to be a lull at some point. Honaker is a small community and has had a good run over the past 13-14 years. It may have not resulted in championships, but it has brought winning seasons in all but maybe 2 years. However, look at some of the East teams, they have suffered enrollment problems as well, thus dropping down in classifications. The East always brings speed, but the West brings hard hitters and team cohesiveness.

[Jethro 113]

Phil always has ran his pie hole. Even BSG hates him.

[Jethro 113]

*has always*

[Lance 228]

It's nothing else other than kids now are lazy. All the huge kids are walking the halls, playing call of duty, and eating chips. You wouldn't believe the kids who could be D1 prospects that walk the halls at all these high schools.

 

 

hell...i was going to say this...but, couldn't say it any better.

 

You want to win you have to "learn" speed and put in the work...no one around here wants to do it anymore. Most of these modern day "powerhouses" couldn't stay within 30 points of some of the old 2-8 or worse teams from 30 years ago...and that's a fact. 

[sixcat 2,919]

That's probably the weakest reason in the whole article. However, I think the article does make many great points: population decline and dwindling youth programs among them.

 

I think there are two points not made that may be the strongest of all. The decline is so stark because as SWVA schools are losing population, the rest of Virginia is gaining it in significant numbers. It's why the tide has turned so sharply. Our former competitors out east outnumber is 2:1 and 3:1 in many instances.

 

Second, SWVA strength and conditioning programs lag woefully behind modern conditioning on the large part. It's not enough to lift and hit sleds anymore. You need resistance training. You need plyometrics. It's not an accident that Bluefield is just trashing everybody. Bluefield does those things. Just very few others do.

Plyometrics are the gold standard to winning programs all over the country.  Rural and economically depressed areas are lagging behind for obvious reasons.  In Texas, the perception is, a strength and agility (plyometrics) center is on the street corner adjacent to every public school.  These places often have long waiting lists and charge outrageous rates based on supply versus demand.  Their waiting lists tell them, people will pay whatever premium necessary to give little Johnny the same competitive advantage everyone else is getting.  One prominent former college coach turned ESPN talking head said last Saturday afternoon that true freshmen of today are more like redshirt freshmen of his day because of the training and nutritional regimens they are placed on by the beginning of high school.  I have lived in Texas and Louisiana and have seen these kids first hand.  They play sandlot or even 8th grade football and you think, that poor kid is going to get killed.  Ten years later, he is the starting QB at the University of Kansas while beating Virginia Tech in a BCS Bowl game.

[battleftbl 42]

Let's put it this way...... Union doesn't have Travis or Kris Clark, Travis Turner, Thomas Jones, Julius Jones walking through that door.

Gate City doesn't have Josh Shoemaker, Chad Beasley or Jake Houseright walking through that door.

Lee High doesn't have Eric Saterfield walking through that door.

Graham doesn't have Ahmad Bradshaw walking through that door.

 

Those are a given...but even if you take those big stars out of the discussion..... the "role" players today aren't as big/fast either.  Kid's today are also smaller in stature compared to the 90's for the most part.    Yes Robbins has an ego a country mile wide....yes he loves to talk just to hear himself speak and always was, always will be an ass...... but I've been around about every coach in this area and I'd say 90% of them would agree with this.

One of those Appalachia, Gate City or Powell Valley teams from the 90's would wipe SWVA teams of today off the map.       I will speak on this because I was there and I know...... at Appalachia, a school with 300 kids in it..... Unless you benched 300lbs, you didn't start on the Offensive or Defensive Line. Another thing was that unless you benched 200lbs,  you couldn't get on the field for special teams.     As stated above,  bench numbers are known to not be as important when related to football but it was a good measuring stick and gave kids another reason to live in the weight room.         This is real numbers I'm talking here.... In 1997  10 starters on offense benched over 300 lbs.  2 Starters,  Travis Clark a 195lbs Halfback and Josh Fleenor a 235lb FB that benched 400lbs.   Clark ran a 4.4 in the 40 also.   Any wonders why he ran for over 6000 yards in his career?     Any wonders why that class won 3 state championships in 4 years?

 

Those max days in the weight room in 1997 was unbelievable.   I was a 14 at the time...but will never forget the atmosphere in there.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Good numbers UVAO

 

It has to be kept in mind that Graham was playing up for many of those years, they would have had a couple of nice runs in D2. If Graham, Gate City and Grundy would have dropped when their numbers would have allowed it some very good Clintwood and Haysi teams would have been in D1 instead of D2, making D1 much higher in quality. That could have helped SWVAs overall record. There were some really good Clintwood teams that just couldn't get past Powell Valley or Gate City.

 

Since the schools have been playing where they belong SWVAs record has been much better, especially in D1/A, as we all know 4 for 4 in the state semi-finals under the new playoff format, I would look at that as 4 victories against nonSWVA schools.

 

That's a strong, valid counterpoint.  Graham would've likely romped in the Division 2 title game in 2001 (with arguably its most physically gifted team ever).  Graham probably would've given George Wythe all it could handle in 2002 (and was Grundy's equal), and would've probably been considered a favorite over Gate City in 2003.  That's 2 likely and 1 possible state title that Graham missed on.  Grundy could've just as easily played for the 2002 state title in Division 2, considering that they beat Graham in the Region IV title game that year (aided by some awful weather...on a dry field, Graham would've been prohibitive favorites).

 

The only two thoughts against the point I have are: (1) I didn't think one school electing to play up influenced the classification of another; and (2) Gate City has played down since the 2001 season, which was the starting point of my analysis. 

[sup_rbeast 296]

That's probably the weakest reason in the whole article. However, I think the article does make many great points: population decline and dwindling youth programs among them.

 

Anyone with knowledge of what happened in Wise County (especially PV) in the years leading up to and immediately following consolidation can attest to the validity of:

 

“We have hired superintendents and administrators at these schools that were frustrated athletes,†Robbins said. “They couldn’t make it when they were in high school, and so they come back and hire John Jones as an English teacher and have him help the football team when he’s never played the game. That’s killing us.â€

 

Becasue in Wise County's case, that's right on the money.  The part about having athletes starting now days that couldn't have gotten on the field back in the day is spot on too...region wide.

[sup_rbeast 296]

The whole article is one-sided by one former coach, who IMO has always been a prick. He showed his arse when Honaker went into Bullet Park in 1988 and beat them.

Sounds like a Robbins hater to me.  In 1988 a senior laden Honaker team came into the park in the first round of the playoffs and beat a PV team that had 4 seniors out of 55 players. It took overtime to do it and the fans and team from Honaker acted like they had just won the state championship.  I know this because I was one of the 23 sophomores on that PV team.  I'd think that 67-7 beatdown the following year didn't taste quite as sweet for the folks from Honaker, tho. In fact, after the first 2 games of the 1989 season, PV had outscored Richlands and Honaker by a total of 100-13. So, between himself and Barry jones, there was progress made with that 1988 PV team. After the Honaker loss in 1988 PV was 27-1 over then next 2 seasons with the only loss coming at Gate City on a failed 2 point conversion in overtime.  I'm not saying that Phil is the best coach that ever lived, or was the best person that ever walked the face of the earth.  But, give him his due...the numbers don't lie.

[Deleted Account 5,203]

Anyone with knowledge of what happened in Wise County (especially PV) in the years leading up to and immediately following consolidation can attest to the validity of:

 

“We have hired superintendents and administrators at these schools that were frustrated athletes,†Robbins said. “They couldn’t make it when they were in high school, and so they come back and hire John Jones as an English teacher and have him help the football team when he’s never played the game. That’s killing us.â€

 

Becasue in Wise County's case, that's right on the money.  The part about having athletes starting now days that couldn't have gotten on the field back in the day is spot on too...region wide.

 

A famous story about Vince Lombardi coaching boys' basketball comes to mind.  It's best told by Mickey Corcoran, the legendary high school coach from New York/New Jersey lore, who played on Lombardi's league champion St. Cecelia's team.

 

"He had never coached basketball in his life, he never played basketball,†says Corcoran. “He wasn’t a basketball guy. They gave him 200 dollars to coach the basketball team just to get him to come there and coach… He and I had a great relationship from jump street. When I was in high school, if we weren’t playing a game at night, he’d say ‘call your mother, we’re going out to Sheepshead Bay to have dinner with my mother.’ We did that four or five times, it was really tremendous. He wasn’t the greatest at X’s and O’s; he was just learning the game from other coaches, but he was a great great coach for me and the basketball team. He really was a great basketball coach.

 

He ripped me pretty good in practice one day. He was all over me like white on rice. I came out of the locker room that same day and he saw me going up the steps and says, ‘Mick, come in here…Today is a tough day, tomorrow is going to be a better day.’ He was a master psychologist. He took me from the depths right up to the top of the world. His best characteristic was his player-coach relationships. I coached for 40 years and player-coach relationships is the most important thing in the coaching business."

 

So, yeah.  It's the weakest point in the whole article.  Just because one hasn't done doesn't mean that one cannot learn.  I'll give you that there's going to be one whale of a learning curve if the person's wholly ill-suited to it.  But it's not some daunting mountain.

 

I'm not going to argue about the athletes, because it's fully true.  The 2001 Graham G-Men would've blown this year's squad onto another planet.

[sup_rbeast 296]

So, yeah.  It's the weakest point in the whole article.  Just because one hasn't done doesn't mean that one cannot learn.  I'll give you that there's going to be one whale of a learning curve if the person's wholly ill-suited to it.  But it's not some daunting mountain.

 

 

 

Thing is, that's not what I'm implying.  But, when you replace a fundamentally sound coach with a newbie to the sport, you have a HUGE drop off.  When you replace administrators who were successful in athletics with those who were never good enough to see the field, you have people in charge who actually take some pleasure in seeing the program fail.  It sounds crazy, but that's EXACTLY what happened at PV circa 2005-2006.  It's not like Robbins forgot how to coach or prepare his teams...he couldn't get proven help in his newer coaches or support from his administration. 

 

[redtiger 1,740]

I forgot about GC dropping down in 01 but I do believe my point is valid. Haysi was one of the 2 smallest D2 schools in the state during the late 90s/early 00s. Reg C was larger than Reg D and the VHSL was looking to balance them out. IF Grundy and Graham would have dropped, both would have been placed in Reg D and that would have pushed Haysi down to D1(where we belonged). Not saying that would have guaranteed titles but Haysi did beat Pound in '99 and that Pound team went on to lose the state title game by 7-10 points, Haysi would have had a legit shot.

 

I have said on here many times before that Robbins was an incredible program builder but I feel he was an average play caller. Regardless of his coaching ability, he is a jerk. That cant be denied. Neither can his success.

 

Alot of this arguement depends on when you consider the "glory days" to be, for me they are the late 90s. The #s from Appy, PV, Graham, Grundy and GC are rediculious. Weightroom #s, wins, OL size, everything. How/why that changed so quickly is difficult for me to understand. But I think we are seeing a resurgance.

 

We also have to keep in mind that during that period there was a wealth of talent that came out of this area, idk why it all came out at the same time but it did. And im not talking about players who made it to college, im talking about legit D1 talent. Bradshaw, Miller, Hamilton, Jones, Jones, Owens, etc, etc. Those kids just simply arent comming out of this area anymore. I really dont think it has anything to do with strength/conditioning/speed programs, the raw talent just isint there. Local schools are still sending players to college programs, just not at a high level.

[cavdaddy 25]

One of the things that is missing in the article is the decline of morality in America.  On that note, the lack of a father in the home has really dampened the traditional family threshold.  Young men are left struggling for an identity and find themselves lost.  Coaches are role models but the young men have to have that initial push to get into competitive sports.  The vacuum of a fatherless society results into women letting video games be the babysitter.  I will say I was quite offended by the notion that school administrators are "bitter".  I work with various ones and the pressure these men are under is nothing to be blown off.  Mr. Robbins needs to remember why schools even exist. . . . . . .

[redtiger 1,740]

That is a good point, its almost as tho Robbins feels schools should hire quality coaches 1st and quality educators 2nd.  He couldnt really feel like that, could he?