sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 20 minutes ago, TwhscoachT said: Injuries are injuries, Proving yourself again are what the playoffs are all about. Why run away from competition (1a aside)? It's not running from competition. It's about not allowing teams who have had a whole year to prove themselves (and failed) another chance...especially at the expense of a team who has proven themselves over the course of the season. It's about restoring an accomplishment that has been degraded over time by allowing teams participate when they clearly don't belong or deserve the honor. Here's the deal: Using the number of high schools today (which is far less than the number in the area from 1970-1985) the percentage of teams who made the playoffs yearly from 1970-1985 was roughly 11%. After Divisions happened in 1986, that percentage jumped to roughly 30%...an almost 200% increase. When the regions were done away with in 2010, the percentage again doubled to roughly 60% of all schools MAKING the playoffs...and under the current set-up, that percentage is unchanged for the most part. Anymore, the playoffs aren't an accomplishment...which is BS. IMO, at least half of those 60% are PRETENDERS and have no justification to be in the playoffs with teams who actually deserve to be there. I can see why fans and coaches from schools who traditionally are weak in the sport may disagree, but feeling sorry for a team is no reason to vouch for inclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwhscoachT 162 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 15 minutes ago, sup_rbeast said: It's not running from competition. It's about not allowing teams who have had a whole year to prove themselves (and failed) another chance...especially at the expense of a team who has proven themselves over the course of the season. It's about restoring an accomplishment that has been degraded over time by allowing teams participate when they clearly don't belong or deserve the honor. Tell that to Blacksburg. Nostalgia really is a stupid argument. That system was extremely flawed and excluded teams from actually proving themselves in the playoffs against common competition that could adapt. Basically you want an easy road for a powerhouse team, while everyone else suffers, seem "valid." Just say it, because how the Old system was actually watered down the playoffs and had 0 honor to them. I value the new state championships more than any other, it proves you survived the gauntlet and that you had depth developed to actually win. Edit: I do not trust our officials enough to make regular season game hold that much weight on a teams future. Atleast in the playoff games you get the seasoned officials who "might" have a clue as to what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityofRaven 2,444 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 19 minutes ago, sup_rbeast said: It's not running from competition. It's about not allowing teams who have had a whole year to prove themselves (and failed) another chance...especially at the expense of a team who has proven themselves over the course of the season. If you're a good team then what are you worried about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Just now, cityofRaven said: If you're a good team then what are you worried about? If you are a sorry team, why do you feel you belong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, TwhscoachT said: Tell that to Blacksburg. Nostalgia really is a stupid argument. That system was extremely flawed and excluded teams from actually proving themselves in the playoffs against common competition that could adapt. Basically you want an easy road for a powerhouse team, while everyone else suffers, seem "valid." Just say it, because how the Old system was actually watered down the playoffs and had 0 honor to them. I value the new state championships more than any other, it proves you survived the gauntlet and that you had depth developed to actually win. Edit: I do not trust our officials enough to make regular season game hold that much weight on a teams future. Atleast in the playoff games you get the seasoned officials who "might" have a clue as to what they are doing. No...stupid is treating the playoffs of a varsity sport the same way you treat kids in little league... Explain to me the honor in making it to the playoffs in a system where the MAJORITY of teams make it, and in a sport where superiority is much more pronounced than it is in other sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwhscoachT 162 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Just now, sup_rbeast said: No...stupid is treating the playoffs of a varsity sport the same way you treat kids in little league... How is that "little league-ish," Is being unfair what really wrong with this society and what governed who should or should not play in the playoffs? Or is it the fact that we are so stuck on ourselves that we can not accept reason? Edit Im done with this argument. I have explain my rational of why I enjoy this playoff system and I strongly bash the old system. If you have a problem, its extremely easy to find out who I am and come talk to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluefield researcher 1,195 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 "Good" and "Sorry" teams are not always defined by their regular season won-loss records. If there was a system in place that somehow made teams play equal schedules then record would be important. But as it is where schools in the same class play widely different schedules so far as competition is concerned, I like the rating system as it is much better. jarhead24219 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Just now, TwhscoachT said: How is that "little league-ish," Is being unfair what really wrong with this society and what governed who should or should not play in the playoffs? Or is it the fact that we are so stuck on ourselves that we can not accept reason? If you are too obtuse to understand numbers above and how the accomplishment of getting in has been diminished over the past few years, I don't feel the need to hold your hand and walk you through it. By your reasoning, why even have playoffs...just give 'em all a trophy after week 10 and pump up the basketballs...no reason to hurt their little feeling by leaving them out. jarhead24219 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Bluefield researcher said: "Good" and "Sorry" teams are not always defined by their regular season won-loss records. If there was a system in place that somehow made teams play equal schedules then record would be important. But as it is where schools in the same class play widely different schedules so far as competition is concerned, I like the rating system as it is much better. Most can agree that the two can be separated by not allowing half the playoff seeds to be also rans. But, since the inception of the sport, good and sorry teams have been distinguished by their record at the end of the season. It's not like critiquing works of art...we have concrete results. Lots of sorry teams didn't give a sorry effort...but the results were sorry none the less. In that case, give 'em an a for effort and leave 'em out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick_Vitale 342 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 16 hours ago, Dookthecook said: Rube gal says let em all in. Dook, we are talking football... not her britches swva_havok_fan, BlueRazor and SW_VA_boy 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwhscoachT 162 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Just now, sup_rbeast said: If you are too obtuse to understand numbers above and how the accomplishment of getting in has been diminished over the past few years, I don't feel the need to hold your hand and walk you through it. By your reasoning, why even have playoffs...just give 'em all a trophy after week 10 and pump up the basketballs...no reason to hurt their little feeling by leaving them out. Refer to Bluefield researcher post on 9-0-1 teams and one loss teams, as to why the old system is a failure. cityofRaven, BlueRazor and swva_havok_fan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, TwhscoachT said: Refer to Bluefield researcher post on 9-0-1 teams and one loss teams, as to why the old system is a failure. Cute meme...always a good substitute for actual substance. Point me to the 9-0-1 teams who didn't get in after the system was expanded in 1986. You won't because there weren't any. There were 9-1 records that failed to get in...but they failed to win their district, too...so they had a chance. It's football, sometimes you don't get a second chance. Well, not anymore I guess cuz everyone gets multiple chances whether they suck or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluefield researcher 1,195 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 Actually the 9-0-1 teams did win their district as co champion or didn't play the district champion because there was not a round robin. They lost out on power points to the co champion which was the team most of them tied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 47 minutes ago, Bluefield researcher said: Actually the 9-0-1 teams did win their district as co champion or didn't play the district champion because there was not a round robin. They lost out on power points to the co champion which was the team most of them tied. Be that as it may, I didn’t see a 9-0-1 after the 1986 realignment... So, my question is this: If after 1986 the problem was solved and every team had a way into the playoffs by winning their district, why water it down more? Especially, why water it down to the point that more teams get in than are left out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stu_bean 1,058 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 1 hour ago, Bluefield researcher said: "Good" and "Sorry" teams are not always defined by their regular season won-loss records. If there was a system in place that somehow made teams play equal schedules then record would be important. But as it is where schools in the same class play widely different schedules so far as competition is concerned, I like the rating system as it is much better. If that was the case right now you would say that Tazewell is a better team than Richlands. On the flip side I remember several years back in Kentucky, don't remember which schools. All teams in the division made the playoffs and had a 10-0 team versus a 0-10 team in round 1. 0-10 knocked them out and got demolished the next week. I'm not against a .500 team making it but you should have at least that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarhead24219 440 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 The VHSL cares only about $$$$$$ more teams =more money, but they had to pay out major$$$$ for travel, hence the new /old format, = less travel but more revenue. Now with that said I have no problem with teams getting a second chance if they go 500% or better , but if they cant go 5-5 at least they should stay at home and get ready for bb season. The regions where there are not 8 teams with winning records you give the top seed(s) a bye, this way you reward teams with 500% but keep out the teams that have loosing records, and the VHSL makes money so they can hold their meetings in a warm weather climate in the winter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 3 hours ago, sup_rbeast said: If you are too obtuse to understand numbers above and how the accomplishment of getting in has been diminished over the past few years, I don't feel the need to hold your hand and walk you through it. By your reasoning, why even have playoffs...just give 'em all a trophy after week 10 and pump up the basketballs...no reason to hurt their little feeling by leaving them out. He's affiliated with a school that needs this system in place in order to reach the postseason. That's the only fact that girds his argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTownTigers 82 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 7 minutes ago, UVAObserver said: "needs this system in place in order to reach the postseason." One critical point that I think everyone gets and understands, but it still hasn't been pointed out enough in my opinion. Again, I have seen it touched on, but lets spell it out. The overwhelming, overwhelming, and more overwhelming majority of the 9-0-1 or 8-2, 9-1 or very good teams that had very good records that did not make the playoffs was before the automatic DISTRICT WINNER rule and you are in. I know, some teams tied for the district title and then it went to power points, but by in large, the overwhelming majority of the great teams that had good to great records, but didn't get in the playoffs have 2 key or critical events involved in the equation. 1. They likely either played in a very good district for that given year, or at least had a very, very powerful juggernaut that won its district. 2. There was a district winner or two or another weak district or districts with a worse record (but in the same region), but won its district and because of the rule, they automatically made the playoffs. Fact is, there will still be some outliers even in today's time where teams have good records, but don't make the playoffs, especially when you have a region with lots of teams like in Class/Div 6 Northern Virginia. But, the overwhelming majority of teams getting royally screwed like years ago (and they were royally screwed in most cases) are over with the new system. The trade off is an unfortunate won. We immediately think, "the trade off is weaker teams getting into the playoffs." That's not true. We simply allow more teams to enter the playoffs. We got 1 rule correct in eliminating the automatic bid for district winners, but the rule which simply expanded the amount of teams that got playoffs entries was a wrong one in my opinion. It doesn't have to be a trade off. Keep the power point system the way it is and keep the automatic district rule out of the equation, and simply limit the amount of teams that enter the playoffs. Cutting it in half would be a start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GW12 91 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 6-4 is the mark for them they are a good team. They have played a killers row of a schedule. Look at some of the past Champs as said above Galax 6-4, BB 5-5 ect the playoffs are who matters. And Richlands will be around for a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted Account 5,203 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, TTownTigers said: One critical point that I think everyone gets and understands, but it still hasn't been pointed out enough in my opinion. Again, I have seen it touched on, but lets spell it out. The overwhelming, overwhelming, and more overwhelming majority of the 9-0-1 or 8-2, 9-1 or very good teams that had very good records that did not make the playoffs was before the automatic DISTRICT WINNER rule and you are in. I know, some teams tied for the district title and then it went to power points, but by in large, the overwhelming majority of the great teams that had good to great records, but didn't get in the playoffs have 2 key or critical events involved in the equation. 1. They likely either played in a very good district for that given year, or at least had a very, very powerful juggernaut that won its district. 2. There was a district winner or two or another weak district or districts with a worse record (but in the same region), but won its district and because of the rule, they automatically made the playoffs. Fact is, there will still be some outliers even in today's time where teams have good records, but don't make the playoffs, especially when you have a region with lots of teams like in Class/Div 6 Northern Virginia. But, the overwhelming majority of teams getting royally screwed like years ago (and they were royally screwed in most cases) are over with the new system. The trade off is an unfortunate won. We immediately think, "the trade off is weaker teams getting into the playoffs." That's not true. We simply allow more teams to enter the playoffs. We got 1 rule correct in eliminating the automatic bid for district winners, but the rule which simply expanded the amount of teams that got playoffs entries was a wrong one in my opinion. It doesn't have to be a trade off. Keep the power point system the way it is and keep the automatic district rule out of the equation, and simply limit the amount of teams that enter the playoffs. Cutting it in half would be a start. Precisely my proposal in an earlier post. Cut it from 8 to 4. sup_rbeast 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwhscoachT 162 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 30 minutes ago, UVAObserver said: He's affiliated with a school that needs this system in place in order to reach the postseason. That's the only fact that girds his argument. I believe Graham has received the grace of this system far more than Thomas Walker has. Until recently, we could not win a game therefore we couldnt qualify for the playoffs under ANY system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sup_rbeast 296 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 22 minutes ago, UVAObserver said: Precisely my proposal in an earlier post. Cut it from 8 to 4. I would prefer they keep the automatic bid for district winners and then go by points to fill out the field. But, still, seed by points. That is the main reason I wouldn't mind seeing a field of 6. That way, it allows for Champions of bad districts (allowing EVERYONE a chance to play themselves into the playoffs through the regular season) and it allows for the very best teams who fail to win their districts to back in to the playoffs. By giving a first round bye to the top 2 seeds, it leaves no doubt as to who belongs (a la the NCAA March Madness play-in games) before the top 2 have to be involved, rewarding their regular season accomplishments. I think that would be the most equitable system to go to with the least chance of deserving teams being left out. No one could blame the system in this scenario because if they failed to get in, they had a chance and blew it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwhscoachT 162 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 18 minutes ago, sup_rbeast said: I would prefer they keep the automatic bid for district winners and then go by points to fill out the field. But, still, seed by points. That is the main reason I wouldn't mind seeing a field of 6. That way, it allows for Champions of bad districts (allowing EVERYONE a chance to play themselves into the playoffs through the regular season) and it allows for the very best teams who fail to win their districts to back in to the playoffs. By giving a first round bye to the top 2 seeds, it leaves no doubt as to who belongs (a la the NCAA March Madness play-in games) before the top 2 have to be involved, rewarding their regular season accomplishments. I think that would be the most equitable system to go to with the least chance of deserving teams being left out. No one could blame the system in this scenario because if they failed to get in, they had a chance and blew it. Why not keep what we have but if you are the 4-8th teams (You must have a winning record to qualify). Serves a purpose and allows the "deserving" teams a chance to play. Either way, the schools with Killer schedules are going to adjust to the playoff system and schedule accordingly. That way the top heavy districts (Mountain 2013-2016) wont suffer as much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goose111874 967 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 There not gonna go from 8 to 4 teams because that's another week they make money its that simple. If there was enough teams there would be 16 making the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TTownTigers 82 Report Share Posted October 4, 2017 45 minutes ago, sup_rbeast said: I would prefer they keep the automatic bid for district winners and then go by points to fill out the field. But, still, seed by points. That is the main reason I wouldn't mind seeing a field of 6. That way, it allows for Champions of bad districts (allowing EVERYONE a chance to play themselves into the playoffs through the regular season) and it allows for the very best teams who fail to win their districts to back in to the playoffs. By giving a first round bye to the top 2 seeds, it leaves no doubt as to who belongs (a la the NCAA March Madness play-in games) before the top 2 have to be involved, rewarding their regular season accomplishments. I think that would be the most equitable system to go to with the least chance of deserving teams being left out. No one could blame the system in this scenario because if they failed to get in, they had a chance and blew it. I think your proposal is respectful and similar to mine. I don't like the automatic district winner rule, but if you are going to put in back into place, then we need to consider cutting the amount of teams that enter the playoffs (much less) "don't cut it back as much" because we need to be absolutely sure a team out there that is deserving is not left out of the playoffs. Our criminal justice system centers on trying to do everything possible or "beyond a reasonable doubt" to ensure someone innocent (deserving of no punishment) is not punished compared to someone guilty (not deserving of being free in society) is punished. In summary, we error or allow some to go free (even though we know a substantial portion of those are guilty) compared to ensuring that few are punished, even though they are innocent. I know High School Football and the criminal justice system are not the same, but I think of it as similar. It's critically important to ensure a team that is deserving of the playoffs (not guilty) is allowed in the playoffs (not punished). This gives more weight to me than trying to screen out for a team that doesn't deserve to be in the playoffs being allowed to enter the playoffs. In short, we fix all of the above in my opinion by eliminating automatic district winners and ever so slightly increasing the amount of teams that enter the playoffs. If we go back 40 years and look at one of the 9-1 teams that Bluefield Researcher mentioned that didn't make the playoffs. If we eliminate the automatic district winner rule and also add 2-4 teams in that region as making the playoffs and do it on a power points system, then we have our cake and eat it also. The 9-1 team would have made the playoffs and the teams in the region that had a weak district winner (like a 6-4 team) would have still made the playoffs as one of the final teams to get in by power points (if the automatic district winner rule wouldn't have been in place). In summary, if you have 4 districts in whatever setting you wish to call it (region A, region 3, region 4 etc) allow 2 more teams than there are districts to enter the playoffs, so by the example here......6 teams enter the playoffs IF you have automatic district winners as getting in. Again, I don't like the idea. The power point system doesn't lie much, and it exposes strength of schedule. A 5-5 team that is solid (Appalachia state title winner back in the day) will still get into the playoffs by a good power point system because the power point system recognizes the strength of schedule a team like Appalachia back in the day played. The power point system would realize the 5 losses weren't to cupcakes, etc. Therefore, you don't need an automatic district winner to get in ....only my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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