Power points

[Tigers_07 72]

5 minutes ago, Union_Fan said:

A solid 5th most likely.

ok. thanks for clearing that up.  but it's like i said i doubt Honaker will win their last three, but then again strange things may happen.

[Gridiron60 2,555]

2 hours ago, UVAObserver said:

Under your proposal, Tazewell with a higher enrollment than Graham would get out of playing Graham to help create a special season for them??  Did I understand that correctly? Lol 

Since VHSL won’t ever do that, let’s just go to top 6 in PP & give top 2 a bye week 1 of playoffs like someone else suggested. That’s not perfect either but it’s better than top 8 but then again it’s all about the almighty dollar not really the kids. 

[Union_Fan 2,155]

5 minutes ago, Tigers_07 said:

ok. thanks for clearing that up.  but it's like i said i doubt Honaker will win their last three, but then again strange things may happen.

Right now, I have Honaker teetering between the 8th and 9th spots in my projections.

[redtiger 1,740]

UVAO, sixcat I just dont agree with the concept. 

UVAO, your potential 2023 "special season" for Tazewell wouldn't have much meaning because the competition has been moved up. Yes, from a purely competitive standpoint its better and I guess thats what would be best for the players overall and what we should be doing. I just dont see the playoffs having any meaning in that scenario. Using that type of classification id be happier with a 12 game regular season and no playoffs. 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

1 hour ago, Gridiron60 said:

Under your proposal, Tazewell with a higher enrollment than Graham would get out of playing Graham to help create a special season for them??  Did I understand that correctly? Lol 

Since VHSL won’t ever do that, let’s just go to top 6 in PP & give top 2 a bye week 1 of playoffs like someone else suggested. That’s not perfect either but it’s better than top 8 but then again it’s all about the almighty dollar not really the kids. 

It’s not as if Tazewell’s enrollment doubles Graham’s.  The enrollments are within 100 of each other.  And winning a state championship, even in a lower classification, is something special that should be celebrated.  
 

Besides, if Graham were truly that much better, under my proposal, Graham would be playing bigger fish in bigger ponds.  

[Deleted Account 5,203]

1 hour ago, redtiger said:

UVAO, sixcat I just dont agree with the concept. 

UVAO, your potential 2023 "special season" for Tazewell wouldn't have much meaning because the competition has been moved up. Yes, from a purely competitive standpoint its better and I guess thats what would be best for the players overall and what we should be doing. I just dont see the playoffs having any meaning in that scenario. Using that type of classification id be happier with a 12 game regular season and no playoffs. 

Does Galax’s 2015 title have “less meaning” than Westfield’s 2015 title because Galax was in the lowest possible division while Westfield was in the highest possible division?  Because this is essentially the argument here.

[Gridiron60 2,555]

2 hours ago, UVAObserver said:

Besides, if Graham were truly that much better, under my proposal, Graham would be playing bigger fish in bigger ponds.  

Nobody is saying Graham is “truly that much better”. I just found the proposal amusing is all with the “special season” comment. Just picking at you! 

[sixcat 2,919]

27 minutes ago, UVAObserver said:

Does Galax’s 2015 title have “less meaning” than Westfield’s 2015 title because Galax was in the lowest possible division while Westfield was in the highest possible division?  Because this is essentially the argument here.

Yeah, I don't understand the argument here either. Regardless of how you arrive at the destination, there will always be a "lower" classification. 

@redtiger, would you frown upon a Haysi state championship in Class 1 were they to have won one?

[stu_bean 1,058]

Other than the first round of 1 vs 8 and 2 vs 7 that usually leads to a sacrificial slaughter, I really don't have an issue with what there is now.  Give these kids one more time to play together before they leave high school to move on in life.  Besides, upsets do happen and gives us something to really talk about when they do.  Also hopefully teaches teams to never let your guard down and always play each game like it will be a fight.  Only thing I will complain about is the rematches.  Much prefer to see a new team.

[redtiger 1,740]

1 hour ago, sixcat said:

Yeah, I don't understand the argument here either. Regardless of how you arrive at the destination, there will always be a "lower" classification. 

@redtiger, would you frown upon a Haysi state championship in Class 1 were they to have won one?

Under that proposed system yes, it wouldn't mean much. In that system neither Altavista or Essex would have been 1A when Haysi made their last runs 13 and 14, Galax may have also been moved up based on recent success. A championship would have been very likely but champions of what? Haysi has 5 state semifinals appearances in football, that's basically the best of the rest, which is what the proposed system would create.  

In a way it makes me appreciate the approach KY takes in basketball, yeah a bottom division team is likely never going to win a championship but just making it to the state semis or even quarterfinals is an accomplishment.

1 hour ago, UVAObserver said:

Does Galax’s 2015 title have “less meaning” than Westfield’s 2015 title because Galax was in the lowest possible division while Westfield was in the highest possible division?  Because this is essentially the argument here.

 Less, to an extent yes because we all know Westfield being the MUCH larger school would thrash Galax. '15 Galax stood above their peers, schools of equal size.

That system also punishes players from dominant programs, with smaller schools talent obviously ebbs and flows. The kids caught in an valley pay for the success of those from the peak, for a season at least.

 

Im looking at this from the perspective of an adult looking at a kids game, for the kids that's more equitable and makes sense in terms of competition but I wouldn't ever want to hear anyone brag about winning a championship. 

[sixcat 2,919]

21 minutes ago, redtiger said:

Under that proposed system yes, it wouldn't mean much. In that system neither Altavista or Essex would have been 1A when Haysi made their last runs 13 and 14, Galax may have also been moved up based on recent success. A championship would have been very likely but champions of what? Haysi has 5 state semifinals appearances in football, that's basically the best of the rest, which is what the proposed system would create.  

In a way it makes me appreciate the approach KY takes in basketball, yeah a bottom division team is likely never going to win a championship but just making it to the state semis or even quarterfinals is an accomplishment.

 Less, to an extent yes because we all know Westfield being the MUCH larger school would thrash Galax. '15 Galax stood above their peers, schools of equal size.

That system also punishes players from dominant programs, with smaller schools talent obviously ebbs and flows. The kids caught in an valley pay for the success of those from the peak, for a season at least.

 

Im looking at this from the perspective of an adult looking at a kids game, for the kids that's more equitable and makes sense in terms of competition but I wouldn't ever want to hear anyone brag about winning a championship. 

If Tarboro and Mount Airy are Class A in North Carolina, Galax, Altavista and Essex would certainly be as well. Tarboro has won 8 Class A state championships and produced Todd Gurley, Shaun Draughn and Tyquan Lewis. For those that saw Mount Airy at the George Wythe jamboree, they are Class A and haven't won a state championship since 2008. If you think Class A football in North Carolina would be weak because of this system, you haven't seen Class A football in North Carolina!!! 

Also, the multiplier North Carolina uses is based on athletic department success, not just football. 

[BandanaVTDavis4321 1,717]

42 minutes ago, sixcat said:

If Tarboro and Mount Airy are Class A in North Carolina, Galax, Altavista and Essex would certainly be as well. Tarboro has won 8 Class A state championships and produced Todd Gurley, Shaun Draughn and Tyquan Lewis. For those that saw Mount Airy at the George Wythe jamboree, they are Class A and haven't won a state championship since 2008. If you think Class A football in North Carolina would be weak because of this system, you haven't seen Class A football in North Carolina!!! 

Also, the multiplier North Carolina uses is based on athletic department success, not just football. 

Bingo. 

[Liam McPoyle 1,863]

If you're of fan of earning a playoff berth, 1970 to 1985 was the golden era. VHSL only had three classifications (A,AA, AAA), with very large districts. For example, the SWD generally consisted of 10 AA teams (Marion, PH, Abingdon, JSB, VHS, GC, Graham, Tazewell, Richlands, and Grundy). The only other district in Region IV was the New River Valley, which generally consisted of 8 AA teams (George Wythe, Giles, Narrows, Radford, Blacksburg, Christiansburg, Galax, and Carroll County). From 1970 to 77ish, you had to win the district to make the playoffs. Your first playoff game was the regional championship (SWD vs NRV). The second game was the state semis (Region IV vs Region III). The third playoff game was the state title game. From 1978ish to 1985, VHSL expanded by essentially awarding 2 teams each from the SWD and NRV a playoff berth. This, of course, made a team's first game a regional semi-final.  So, in 1970, Gate City won the state by going 13-0, whereas Giles won the state in 1980 by going 14-0. Once the VHSL went from crowning 3 champs to 6 champs in 1986, they've struggled to find a satisfactory system. 

 

[BandanaVTDavis4321 1,717]

6 classes is too many. It should be 4, no more than 5 imo. The other problem is when they expanded from 4 teams to 8 teams making the playoffs from each region. 

My preference. 4 Classifications and 8 teams from each region make the playoffs, or 5 Classifications and 6 teams from each region make the playoffs. When you have the current 6 Classifications and 8 teams per region, well...it's ugly. That's 192 teams in the State of Virginia making the playoffs

If you have 5 Classifications with 6 teams in each region making the playoffs, that's 120 teams making the playoffs and if you have 4 Classifications with 8 teams per region making the playoffs, that's 128 teams making it. So, a huge difference in 128 or 120 teams compared to the current and whopping 192 teams making the playoffs. The system itself for figuring power points is NOT bad in my opinion. It's the amount of teams they are letting in from each region (the volume) that is the problem.

[BandanaVTDavis4321 1,717]

If they are dead set on leaving 6 Classifications of football as it is, then allow 5 teams in the playoffs per region, and not the current 8.  The 1 seed gets a bye and 2 plays 5 and 3 plays 4. If you have 6 Classifications and 5 teams entering the playoffs per region, that is 120 teams in VA making the playoffs compared to the current 192 teams. The total teams in the field needs to be somewhere between 120 and 144 imo. Anything higher than 144 teams is diluting the system bigtime. 

[Hokiebird7 1,416]

25 minutes ago, BandanaVTDavis4321 said:

If they are dead set on leaving 6 Classifications of football as it is, then allow 5 teams in the playoffs per region, and not the current 8.  The 1 seed gets a bye and 2 plays 5 and 3 plays 4. If you have 6 Classifications and 5 teams entering the playoffs per region, that is 120 teams in VA making the playoffs compared to the current 192 teams. The total teams in the field needs to be somewhere between 120 and 144 imo. Anything higher than 144 teams is diluting the system bigtime. 

Can't do it with #1 getting bye cause if 2 plays 5 and 3 plays 4 then next round you have only 3 teams left.

Only way to do it with 5 teams is 4 plays 5 week 1 winner plays #1 while 2 and 3 play....so basically top 3 get byes

[Duke2015 451]

I don’t have a problem with the playoff format.  I know bad teams are getting in but the kids seem to not care.  And yes the VHSL allows this many teams for the money but isn’t that what they’re supposed to be doing making money 

[BandanaVTDavis4321 1,717]

7 hours ago, Hokiebird7 said:

Can't do it with #1 getting bye cause if 2 plays 5 and 3 plays 4 then next round you have only 3 teams left.

Only way to do it with 5 teams is 4 plays 5 week 1 winner plays #1 while 2 and 3 play....so basically top 3 get byes

Yea, good point. 4 playing 5 in week 1 works. Got to be something different than 8 dang teams.

[redtiger 1,740]

13 hours ago, sixcat said:

 If you think Class A football in North Carolina would be weak because of this system, you haven't seen Class A football in North Carolina!!! 

Also, the multiplier North Carolina uses is based on athletic department success, not just football. 

I know absolutely nothing of NC football beyond what you and a few others have discussed on here and that Mt Airy was at the GW Jamboree. 

I just don't see it, if they're (Mt. Airy and Tarboro) so good and that dominant then why are they still Class A?  How is that system better if such good programs are still playing with the small schools? Unless they're not very good in other sports and that's keeping them in the lower classification.  Feels like you're playing both sides here - this system will make competition better by grouping better programs together but also here are 2 incredibly successful programs that play in the bottom classification.

Athletic department success has an influence on the schools overall classification? Central for example has had a dominant girls basketball program for a decade, why should that factor into boys basketball classification (their boys program isn't very good)?

I fully realize that there isn't going to be a perfect system, I just don't see how the NC system is really better.

I will say I think VAs points system is pretty good, usually things work out as they "should" without any crazy outliers, the problem comes in how many teams get in the playoffs and having too many classifications.

The big issue the VHSL has is the wide range of school enrollments wouldn't be opposed to a 4 class system, WV has a pretty good system but their enrollments are much closer. IMO the simple answer for VA is to just combine 5A and 6A and keep them at 32 playoff teams while reducing 1-4A to 16 teams, and if teams want to play up feel free but playing down would be a rarity. That makes the most sense to me 

[FootballFan67 62]

On 10/18/2022 at 9:45 AM, UVAObserver said:

 

Most of the schools in SWVA would start in Class D.  John Battle, Marion, Virginia, Central, Gate City, Union, Lee, Richlands, and Abingdon would start in Class C (as would Appomattox).  Pulaski County would start in Class B.  Patrick Henry (Roanoke) is the westernmost school that would start in Class A.  Over time, most of the SWVA schools would find themselves clumped back together in Class C and Class D.  The historically strong programs (Graham, Union) would probably find themselves in Class B over time, with a possible foray or two into Class A should there be a run of athletes like Graham has had over the last 5-6 years.  It would also create some special seasons for schools like Tazewell.  Imagine the 2023 Bulldogs, who should be pretty good, playing in a Class without having to face Ridgeview, Radford, Graham, Riverheads, or any of the teams above in Class C in the playoffs.  It gives each school the opportunity to excel if they are closer to the top of their Class.  Further, teams in Class C and Class D can play each other, though it would benefit Class D teams more than Class C.

 

Don't some of the 2A teams like Graham already play teams in higher classifications? Why should they be put in the highest classification system under your proposal if they already play "up" so to speak? I get everyone wants their team to have a "special season"  but I don't see the issue with the current system of classification. To help they could  combine 5A & 6A without upsetting the apple cart too much but putting weaker 2A teams in a lower classification to keep them from playing stronger teams isn't a solution in my opinion. it seems like "everybody needs a trophy" mentality or at least my team should get the trophy by playing down but that's just me.  I'm not trying to argue or begrudge any team a successful season but find a way to be successful within the confines of the present system until that changes. The main issue  (once again my opinion) is the number of teams in the playoffs. It's too many but then again like @stu_bean said, it gives those bottom teams an opportunity to play one more game for the Seniors even if they are most probably going to get slaughtered. 

[stu_bean 1,058]

 

Don't some of the 2A teams like Graham already play teams in higher classifications? Why should they be put in the highest classification system under your proposal if they already play "up" so to speak? I get everyone wants their team to have a "special season"  but I don't see the issue with the current system of classification. To help they could  combine 5A & 6A without upsetting the apple cart too much but putting weaker 2A teams in a lower classification to keep them from playing stronger teams isn't a solution in my opinion. it seems like "everybody needs a trophy" mentality or at least my team should get the trophy by playing down but that's just me.  I'm not trying to argue or begrudge any team a successful season but find a way to be successful within the confines of the present system until that changes. The main issue  (once again my opinion) is the number of teams in the playoffs. It's too many but then again like @stu_bean said, it gives those bottom teams an opportunity to play one more game for the Seniors even if they are most probably going to get slaughtered. 

I may change my mind later but I believe that I would rather see less deserving team make the playoffs than to have one that had a stellar season and just missed the bubble.  That might have been their once in 20 yr season.

[S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE 239]

For years we had 7-3 or better that couldn't make the playoffs. I'm good with some non-deserving teams making it as long as the better ranked teams get in.  Sub .500 shouldn't but it those others should.  Extra money for vhsl yes,  but what's one more game worth for a kid and to see them play? Worth it. 

[TwhscoachT 162]

Nostalgia..... Is not the correct way. 

This is the best system that we have with the current class system. 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

19 hours ago, Liam McPoyle said:

If you're of fan of earning a playoff berth, 1970 to 1985 was the golden era. VHSL only had three classifications (A,AA, AAA), with very large districts. For example, the SWD generally consisted of 10 AA teams (Marion, PH, Abingdon, JSB, VHS, GC, Graham, Tazewell, Richlands, and Grundy). The only other district in Region IV was the New River Valley, which generally consisted of 8 AA teams (George Wythe, Giles, Narrows, Radford, Blacksburg, Christiansburg, Galax, and Carroll County). From 1970 to 77ish, you had to win the district to make the playoffs. Your first playoff game was the regional championship (SWD vs NRV). The second game was the state semis (Region IV vs Region III). The third playoff game was the state title game. From 1978ish to 1985, VHSL expanded by essentially awarding 2 teams each from the SWD and NRV a playoff berth. This, of course, made a team's first game a regional semi-final.  So, in 1970, Gate City won the state by going 13-0, whereas Giles won the state in 1980 by going 14-0. Once the VHSL went from crowning 3 champs to 6 champs in 1986, they've struggled to find a satisfactory system. 

 

I still think my system gives us that "satisfactory system" that we've been looking for since 1986.  WARNING: This post will be very long.

Here's what the "Inaugural Class D" would look like by enrollment numbers:

(241) Thomas Jefferson (Richmond): 578

(242) John Marshall: 576

(243) Martinsville: 575

(244) Ridgeview: 570 

(245) Glenvar: 569 

(246) Page County: 548 

(247) Buckingham County: 546 

(248) James River - Buchanan:  545 

(249) Amelia County: 542 

(250) Bluestone: 532 

(251) Madison County: 530 

(252) Gretna: 524 

(253) Giles: 523 

(254) Randolph-Henry: 520 

(255) Luray: 520 

(256) Tazewell: 518

(257) Windsor: 513

(258) Graham: 510

(259) Radford: 505

(260) Lebanon: 503 

(261) Mountain View: 499

(262) Fort Chiswell: 495 

(263) Grayson County: 489 

(264) Buffalo Gap: 483 

(265) Brunswick: 477 

(266) Northampton: 453 

(267) Riverheads: 447 

(268) Westmoreland: 444 

(269) George Wythe (Wytheville): 436 

(270) Essex: 428 

(271) Auburn: 422 

(272) Northumberland: 421 

(273) Patrick Henry (Glade Spring): 420 

(274) Grundy: 415 

(275) Cumberland: 414

(276) Eastside: 411 

(277) Central (Lunenburg): 398 

(278) Chilhowie: 397 

(279) Mathews: 393

(280) Middlesex: 383 

(281) Rappahannock: 368 

(282) Appomattox Reg. Gov.: 367 

(283) Rural Retreat: 365

(284) Lancaster: 361 

(285) Galax: 360 

(286) Altavista: 356 

(287) Honaker: 343 

(288) Sussex Central: 307

(289) Holston: 301 

(290) Parry McCluer: 299

(291) Galileo: 292

(292) Franklin: 283 

(293) Northwood: 280 

(294) Covington: 280 

(295) Eastern Montgomery: 279 

(296) Narrows: 278 

(297) Rappahannock Co.: 276 

(298) Castlewood: 272

(299) West Point: 271

(300) William Campbell: 256 

(301) Thomas Walker: 252

(302) Bland: 252

(303) Carver College & Career: 251 

(304) Surry County: 238 

(305) Craig County: 221 

(306) J. I. Burton: 220 

(307) Rye Cove: 206 

(308) Charles City: 189 

(309) Twin Valley: 188 

(310) Twin Springs: 187 

(311) Colonial Beach: 177 

(312) Hurley: 174 

(313) Chincoteague: 173 

(314) Bath County: 165 

(315) King & Queen Central: 150

(316) Council: 108 

(317) Highland: 57 

 

To save a step, here is what the VHSL Power Points this season would look like between West and East as of this week:

West Region:

(1) Graham - 26.000 [7-0]

(1) Radford - 26.000 [7-0]

(3) Martinsville - 25.000 [6-1]

(4) Ridgeview - 24.286 [7-0]

(5) Glenvar - 20.000 [5-3]

(6) Grayson County - 19.714 [7-0]

(7) Patrick Henry (Glade Spring) - 19.571 [5-2]

(8) Rye Cove - 18.000 [6-1]

(9) Galax - 17.857 [4-3]

(10) George Wythe (Wytheville) 17.750 [5-3]

(11) Tazewell - 17.625 [4-4]

(12) Grundy - 17.429 [4-3]

(13) Narrows - 16.333 [5-1]

(14) Twin Springs - 16.167 [4-2]

(15) Gretna - 16.000 [2-5]

(16) Lebanon - 15.875 [5-3]

-------------------------------------------------------

(17) James River (Buchanan) - 15.714 [3-4]

(18) Holston - 15.286 [4-3]

(19) Hurley - 14.857 [4-3]

(20) Honaker - 14.571 [4-3]

(21) Rural Retreat - 14.167 [3-3]

(22) J.I. Burton - 14.000 [3-4]

(23) Giles - 13.667 [2-4]

(24) Northwood - 13.000 [3-4]

(25) Parry McCluer - 12.143 [2-5]

(26) Fort Chiswell - 12.143 [2-5]

(27) Thomas Walker - 11.571 [2-5]

(28) Craig County - 11.000 [2-3]

(29) Eastern Montgomery - 10.833 [2-4]

(30) Covington - 10.286 [0-7]

(31) Altavista - 10.143 [0-7]

(32) Castlewood - 9.571 [1-6]

(33) Auburn - 8.800 [0-5]

(34) Eastside - 8.625 [0-8]

(35) Chilhowie - 7.714 [0-7]

N/A: Bland, Twin Valley, Council, Highland

East Region:

(1) Thomas Jefferson (Richmond) - 25.714 [7-0]

(2) Luray - 24.857 [6-1]

(3) Essex - 23.143 [7-0]

(4) Riverheads - 22.667 [5-1]

(5) Central (Lunenburg) - 22.250 [8-0]

(6) Buckingham County - 22.143 [6-1]

(7) Buffalo Gap - 18.000 [4-3]

(8) King & Queen - 17.500 [5-1]

(9) Madison County - 17.429 [4-3]

(10) Northumberland - 17.333 [4-2]

(11) Amelia County - 17.143 [4-3]

(12) Westmoreland - 17.000 [3-3]

(13) West Point - 16.857 [5-2]

(14) Randolph-Henry - 16.857 [4-3]

(15) Brunswick - 16.750 [4-4]

(16) Franklin - 16.143 [4-3]

-------------------------------------------------

(17) Sussex Central - 15.857 [4-3]

(18) Rappahannock - 15.429 [4-3]

(19) Page County - 14.857 [2-5]

(20) William Campbell - 13.250 [3-5]

(21) Bath County - 12.857 [3-4]

(22) Surry County - 12.571 [2-5]

(23) John Marshall - 12.286 [1-6]

(24) Northampton - 11.500 [2-4]

(25) Middlesex - 11.000 [3-4]

(26) Mountain View - 10.600 [0-5]

(27) Lancaster - 10.143 [1-6]

(28) Colonial Beack - 9.429 [0-7]

(29) Windsor - 9.125 [0-8]

(30) Cumberland - 9.000 [0-7]

(31) Charles City - 7.667 [0-6]

N/A: Bluestone, Mathews, Appomattox Reg. Gov., Galileo, Carver College & Career, Chincoteague

 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

You can't tell me you wouldn't prefer this setup.  Just 1 team with a losing record in the playoffs (Gretna, as a 15-seed, who has played a murderer's row thus far).  2 tiny high schools (Rye Cove, King & Queen) set to host playoff games.  A juicy Rye Cove/Galax matchup?  Huge road trips in the 5/12, 4/13, and 3/14 games?  Sign me up...