Week 10 updates.

[Hokiebird7 1,416]

34 minutes ago, SWVAgridiron said:

Giles was up 34 points when starters got pulled.

Yeah but some just look at final score

[Wolf1207 239]

1 hour ago, SwvaOG said:

Agreed.  Just have to look at the two teams that have found success winning state championships: Graham and Richlands….both had a good balance of pass and run and allowed their offenses to feature their athletes.  Union’s rigid adherence to an old school offense limits some their athletes.  I’ll never understand placing the culture of an offense over productivity.  RV has their problem with it as well.  They insist on trying to run first in a region where every damn defense is built to stop the run.  Only when they realize that the first  half is over and it’s not working do they go to what they are good at.  That is the folly of the coaches featuring THEIR offense and not featuring the athletes.  The whole concept of modern football is creating mismatches and making a defense defend the whole field.  Mance, at Richlands, was a master of this and his success shows.

With the way the rules are in football now, I don’t understand why everyone isn’t running some type of spread offense. The only times you shouldn’t is if you have a team with limited athletes. The single a teams around here will have too much and match just because of depth. But at 2a and above, there is absolutely no reason not to. Union should be 50/50 run pass. Rv more like 75/25 pass/run. 
As good as I think they are, Central will limit itself with the wing t.  

[BigWinners 1,643]

1 hour ago, SwvaOG said:

Agreed.  Just have to look at the two teams that have found success winning state championships: Graham and Richlands….both had a good balance of pass and run and allowed their offenses to feature their athletes.  Union’s rigid adherence to an old school offense limits some their athletes.  I’ll never understand placing the culture of an offense over productivity.  RV has their problem with it as well.  They insist on trying to run first in a region where every damn defense is built to stop the run.  Only when they realize that the first  half is over and it’s not working do they go to what they are good at.  That is the folly of the coaches featuring THEIR offense and not featuring the athletes.  The whole concept of modern football is creating mismatches and making a defense defend the whole field.  Mance, at Richlands, was a master of this and his success shows.

Amen. Been harping on that for years. The amount of athletes that have came thru Union at the skill positions and not been given a chance to contribute significantly is numerous. The weirdest thing is, Turner wasn't always so dead set on the T. Union used to run way more gun and created way more space for their athletes but Turner seems to be stuck the last few years. Unless you're Riverheads and can dominate th LOS every game and play mistake free football, you need to be able to attack a defense in multiple ways. Even Riverheads will throw some. Old school Giles ran a successful system but it's so much harder to win around here against teams built to stop the run. Wise does it well but does anyone see Wise winning a state title without throwing the ball to compliment their run game? I don't. Graham can do it because they can attack you inside, on the edge, in the flat, the seams, on the outside, etc... I'm not sure they'll win it all but they have the best chance because they are so much harder to game plan against compared to a Union.

 

A Ridgeview fan understand the pain perfectly, you guys have the best passing attack around. Use it! 

[FoxTrot 180]

15 minutes ago, BigWinners said:

Amen. Been harping on that for years. The amount of athletes that have came thru Union at the skill positions and not been given a chance to contribute significantly is numerous. The weirdest thing is, Turner wasn't always so dead set on the T. Union used to run way more gun and created way more space for their athletes but Turner seems to be stuck the last few years. Unless you're Riverheads and can dominate th LOS every game and play mistake free football, you need to be able to attack a defense in multiple ways. Even Riverheads will throw some. Old school Giles ran a successful system but it's so much harder to win around here against teams built to stop the run. Wise does it well but does anyone see Wise winning a state title without throwing the ball to compliment their run game? I don't. Graham can do it because they can attack you inside, on the edge, in the flat, the seams, on the outside, etc... I'm not sure they'll win it all but they have the best chance because they are so much harder to game plan against compared to a Union.

 

A Ridgeview fan understand the pain perfectly, you guys have the best passing attack around. Use it! 

Has Union proved they can throw the ball effectively at all.  I know Bunch is a hell of a basketball player, and is an athlete, but in the games I have seen, he doesn’t throw the ball exactly well.  Maybe the coaches know this, so you see limited throw game.  I have seen people talk about Jenkins, but he hasn’t exactly lit it up on a consistent basis.  Maybe they could throw more short game to him, but I would trust a former FCSQB and his knowledge of offense than a message board or parent.  Maybe they will open it up more in the playoffs?

[BandanaVTDavis4321 1,717]

16 minutes ago, FoxTrot said:

  Maybe they could throw more short game to him, but I would trust a former FCSQB and his knowledge of offense than a message board or parent.  

I agree and disagree.  No question, Turner is the guy that sees practice and knows his teams capabilities and limitations more than anyone else.  But......this isn't a one year thing.  It's one thing to be run oriented, but Union has been super, super run oriented for a long time, and the odds are..........with all the great athletes and football players than have came through Union, over the last 10 years, the odds have to lean in favor of having at least some kid that can throw it decent enough  I think Union's so conservative that it puts Bunch in desperate passing situations.  Count how many times he's throwing it on 3rd and long, largely because they are so conservative on first down that teams now just play a goal-line defense on first down and completely sell out to the run, and against good teams like Abingdon, you get 2nd and 9 or 2nd and 10.  

Lastly, the standard by which Turner is judged is NOT in comparison to any message board poster or parents.  That standard is judged in comparison to his peers, the other fellow Class 2 coaches across Virginia.  I think Turner and the Union staff are AWESOME.  Great staff, but even great staffs or coaches can struggle in one area.  Union in fact, is to conservative in my opinion and the critique is valid.  Nobody is calling for Turner's head.  He's one of the best in Virginia, but yes, they need more creativity on offense, especially on First and Second downs.  Only my opinion.  I still say when all is said and done, Union and Graham will be playing in the Region D Title Game, and in the 4th quarter, it will be anybody's game to win.  

[BigWinners 1,643]

7 minutes ago, FoxTrot said:

Has Union proved they can throw the ball effectively at all.  I know Bunch is a hell of a basketball player, and is an athlete, but in the games I have seen, he doesn’t throw the ball exactly well.  Maybe the coaches know this, so you see limited throw game.  I have seen people talk about Jenkins, but he hasn’t exactly lit it up on a consistent basis.  Maybe they could throw more short game to him, but I would trust a former FCSQB and his knowledge of offense than a message board or parent.  Maybe they will open it up more in the playoffs?

If this was the first year Union had shown the lack of an ability to throw the ball, I doubt anyone complains. Not to mention it's not like fans are clamoring for 30 passes a game, but it's tough to run the ball against an 11 man box. Union will run the gun and spread the field at times but it just seems like they are extremely reluctant to do so despite having a lot of success doing it.

Bunch struggled Friday night because it was a rainy mess and he never had a chance to get into a groove. You can't judge him solely on last night. He has a big arm, is very mobile and isn't easy to bring down. In the T, you basically take away his best assets, his big arm and his running ability unless they call more designed runs for the QB but they rarely seem to call his number running in th T. Travis was a very successful QB and undoubtedly know a ton about offense, way more than us sure. But if you can't develop a QB or get more out of a QB, isn't that a coaching issue too? Union was way more varied in the past, but it seems they've become very reliant on the T which is very tough to play with if you're trailing. Some of the issue is that Union fans expect too much, outsized expectations, and that's not the staff's fault at all. They can only do so much, 100% true. But it's more of an issue with overall offensive philosophy, not particular to one team or one coach. If you have some talented kids at skill positions, you find ways to get them the ball in space. Sometimes Union is unable to do that, either from a coaching issue or the players aren't capable, so of course fans would like to see more. No one says fire Turner, that's ridiculous, only that the offense seems way too predictable right now

[goose111874 967]

Well he's got a kid in 9th grade that will be the best QB Union has had.  If they can't figure out passing game then they never will

[jarhead24219 440]

The pick six thrown by Bunch was off target, but I don’t think Jenkins seen the ball until it was past him. Bunch was cold and wet and anyone who has a kid that is 6’5” or taller can tell you their hands and feet are like death cold, not an excuse just kinda the facts of last nights game. Both teams played in the rain , one preformed , one didnt

[goose111874 967]

7 minutes ago, jarhead24219 said:

The pick six thrown by Bunch was off target, but I don’t think Jenkins seen the ball until it was past him. Bunch was cold and wet and anyone who has a kid that is 6’5” or taller can tell you their hands and feet are like death cold, not an excuse just kinda the facts of last nights game. Both teams played in the rain , one preformed , one didnt

He could have small hands hard to throw wet ball with small hands

[redtiger 1,740]

Union has 2 good WRs, Central has 1, Ridgeview has 3. Ridgeview is the only team in the M7 with the talent at WR to run a spread offense. Central has had the most success in their history running the Wing T, Union just won a regional title  and went toe to toe with Graham(and should have beat them) running the T, but you guys think they should spread it out?   

Its a matter of 2 things - getting your talented kids on the field(who's better your #3 WR or your #1 TE? Who deserves to be on the field?) and coaches running what they can teach. Carroll at Lee is a great example. Lee does not have the talent to throw the ball 35 times a game, their QB is young and they don't have the recievers. Idk that it's a good use of their talent BUT the offense they're running is what Carroll has ran since he was at Marion, he knows it inside and out and that's what he can best teach. They've had some success because of what he's doing. If he was a Wishbone guy I bet he would be running the Wishbone.

Travis Turner knows everything there is to know about the T, everything.  Unions best shot at state they went to Clarke County and got smacked by a Single Wing team that didn't have the talent they did. If you ask me that solidified Unions offensive strategy in Coach Turners mind.

Going in a different direction look at the SWD, I think its insane for Tazewell, Virginia, Richlands(now), and Marion to try to beat Graham at their game. Better to be different and play to your talents strengths. Gtanted Richlands and Tazewell throw it a lot and its a different version of the spread but its still players playing in space. A good example is Lebanon. Last season they started in the spread before finding  some success in the Power I. At one point they had a defending state champion wrestler (I think he wrestled at 185) at Slot Reciever. Are you kidding me??? That kid can dominate most LBs and DEs he sees, put him at FB.

Not saying a team doesn't have to throw the ball, in today's game defensive strategy has came a long way and throwing the ball is a necessity, but a Offense can throw the ball effectively while still being undercenter and run based.

Look at Graham, they've got a solid RB and A DIVISION ONE ATHLETE PLAYING WIDE RECIEVER AND GETTING A HANDFULL OF TOUCHES A GAME. Does anyone think they would be worse in the I Formation with Bradshaw at Tailback getting 20 carries a game? Even if they kept 3 recievers on the field (like Abingdon does) that makes sense to me but Palmer is a Spread guy.

Oh, and the best teams in 1A and 2A are run heavy, old school offenses. They've got athletes everywhere but choose to run offenses that their coaches can teach and that are different than what everyone else is doing.

[goose111874 967]

I agree with you redtiger I think they should definitely be running the ball alot like they do now but the passing game  needs alot of improvement.  They refuse to throw a slant and almost everytime they do pass its 40 yards down field.  And they never throw the ball from under center, how about a little play action ever now and then

[redtiger 1,740]

Being diverse in terms of playcalling may be a problem at Union but the T isn't. I'd wager if you ask any of the coaches of the 7 other teams in the playoffs if they would rather face Union in the gun or Union in the T they would all say gun.

[Mountain Football 1,532]

I'm not sure its time to hit the panic button if I'm a Union fan. 4 turnovers against a Central team is certainly digging yourself a hole that you're not coming out of against a team of Central's caliber. When was the last time Union had 4 turnovers in a game? Very uncharacteristic of Union. As far as the Abingdon game........Abingdon is just good. They are big up front and physical. Much bigger than Union on the LOS. 

[BigWinners 1,643]

29 minutes ago, redtiger said:

Being diverse in terms of playcalling may be a problem at Union but the T isn't. I'd wager if you ask any of the coaches of the 7 other teams in the playoffs if they would rather face Union in the gun or Union in the T they would all say gun.

Why are you so sure? Union runs the same concepts out of the gun (esp with the wing backs they seem to be using now, it's not four WRs it's more like two WR and two WB) and brings the added dimension of the QB run and allows the QB to see the field better. 

The T is great if you're winning. But if you get behind more than one score, you're under the gun and have no room for error. 

 

you also missed my point, as the comment about Bradshaw is 100% in line with my comments. The goal is creating the best matchup in space when it comes to premiere athletes and Graham does a very good job with Bradshaw. He isn't built for 25 touches per game pounding as a RB so they use him correctly, by creating favorable matchups in the open field. The issue isn't that Union likes a run first, under center offense. It's that the offense can be very predictable at times and it's almost impossible to.come back from multiple scores. Union doesn't need thirty passes per game (RV should IMO) but if you never show on film you'll throw it out of the T, a team can load the box and have a major advantage playing 11 on 10. 

[BigWinners 1,643]

1 hour ago, redtiger said:

Union has 2 good WRs, Central has 1, Ridgeview has 3. Ridgeview is the only team in the M7 with the talent at WR to run a spread offense. Central has had the most success in their history running the Wing T, Union just won a regional title  and went toe to toe with Graham(and should have beat them) running the T, but you guys think they should spread it out?   

Its a matter of 2 things - getting your talented kids on the field(who's better your #3 WR or your #1 TE? Who deserves to be on the field?) and coaches running what they can teach. Carroll at Lee is a great example. Lee does not have the talent to throw the ball 35 times a game, their QB is young and they don't have the recievers. Idk that it's a good use of their talent BUT the offense they're running is what Carroll has ran since he was at Marion, he knows it inside and out and that's what he can best teach. They've had some success because of what he's doing. If he was a Wishbone guy I bet he would be running the Wishbone.

Travis Turner knows everything there is to know about the T, everything.  Unions best shot at state they went to Clarke County and got smacked by a Single Wing team that didn't have the talent they did. If you ask me that solidified Unions offensive strategy in Coach Turners mind.

Going in a different direction look at the SWD, I think its insane for Tazewell, Virginia, Richlands(now), and Marion to try to beat Graham at their game. Better to be different and play to your talents strengths. Gtanted Richlands and Tazewell throw it a lot and its a different version of the spread but its still players playing in space. A good example is Lebanon. Last season they started in the spread before finding  some success in the Power I. At one point they had a defending state champion wrestler (I think he wrestled at 185) at Slot Reciever. Are you kidding me??? That kid can dominate most LBs and DEs he sees, put him at FB.

Not saying a team doesn't have to throw the ball, in today's game defensive strategy has came a long way and throwing the ball is a necessity, but a Offense can throw the ball effectively while still being undercenter and run based.

Look at Graham, they've got a solid RB and A DIVISION ONE ATHLETE PLAYING WIDE RECIEVER AND GETTING A HANDFULL OF TOUCHES A GAME. Does anyone think they would be worse in the I Formation with Bradshaw at Tailback getting 20 carries a game? Even if they kept 3 recievers on the field (like Abingdon does) that makes sense to me but Palmer is a Spread guy.

Oh, and the best teams in 1A and 2A are run heavy, old school offenses. They've got athletes everywhere but choose to run offenses that their coaches can teach and that are different than what everyone else is doing.

Also Unions best shot was 2017 when they hosted the semi final, not 2015, and while smaller teams have more success with the run, it's because it's easier to learn. The top HS teams in the higher divisions across the country spread the field and attack open space. My gripe is that Union becomes stale at times in the T and is beat if they get behind 14+ points and are unable to create chunk plays. The Giles guy made an excellent point about Union's passing being so wobbly because the only time they do is third and long. That's tough on a QB. 

You mention single wing CC, who has beaten Union once, and not Appomattox, who has done it three times and runs a more varied offense. Why?

[S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE 239]

Reading this board could save region d coaches a lot of time.  No need to watch film,  just troll and throw!  Bahahaha 

[redtiger 1,740]

I think CC is when Turner decided what he was going to do offensively. The Bears went up to CC and totally fell apart. I also disagree about their best shot, that 2015 Union team was loaded with talent everywhere - RB, multiple WRs, TE, QB just everywhere. Not to put down the 2017 team but offensively outside of Mitchell they weren't great but Turner made good use of their RBs on Jet and feeding Mitchell the ball. The 2017 team was filthy on Defense.

Appomattox is diverse offensively but they don't run that many plays really, from I've seen anyway. The Triple Options they run are really 3 plays in one, add in Dive, Lead, simple but complimentary passing game, and a small shotgun package and I'd be willing to bet Union has more plays in the regular playbook. Talent level has been the difference maker other than in 2017 where mistakes cost Union.

[BigWinners 1,643]

10 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Reading this board could save region d coaches a lot of time.  No need to watch film,  just troll and throw!  Bahahaha 

Show me where anyone has pretended they know more than any of the coaches and advocated for throwing it 50 times per game. I think RV should do it 35 times per game but I'm not pretending I know more than Tiller and RV staff, that's just my opinion. Same with Union. 

[BigWinners 1,643]

1 minute ago, redtiger said:

I think CC is when Turner decided what he was going to do offensively. The Bears went up to CC and totally fell apart. I also disagree about their best shot, that 2015 Union team was loaded with talent everywhere - RB, multiple WRs, TE, QB just everywhere. Not to pit down the 2017 team but offensively outside of Mitchell they weren't great but Turner made good use of their RBs on Jet and feeding Mitchell the ball. The 2017 team was filthy on Defense.

Appomattox is diverse offensively but they don't run that many plays really, from I've seen anyway. The Triple Options they run are really 3 plays in one, add in Dive, Lead and a small shotgun package and I'd be willing to bet Union has more plays in the regular playbook. Talent level has been the difference maker other than in 2017 where mistakes cost Union.

But 2015 was on road while 2017 was at home. I think 2015 Union was a more complete team but I'd favor the 2017 team BC of the defense. Best group of LBs Union ever had, plus a filthy DL and some very good DBs. Not much scoring on that defense. They had allowed 25 total points in three playoff games before giving up.23 to Appo (and at least seven of those game on special teams). Turner didn't wanna run that single wing style offense in 2017, QB (a good QB, Turners son) got injured and he was kinda forced into that offense. A healthy younger Turner and Unions offense would have been much different IMO. They also win it all in 2017 if they beat Appo IMO.

 

Appomattox doesn't run an insane playbook, but they also do an extremely good job of keeping a defense off balance. I'm not sure Union can say the same at this point. 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

On 10/30/2021 at 10:32 PM, BigWinners said:

But 2015 was on road while 2017 was at home. I think 2015 Union was a more complete team but I'd favor the 2017 team BC of the defense. Best group of LBs Union ever had, plus a filthy DL and some very good DBs. Not much scoring on that defense. They had allowed 25 total points in three playoff games before giving up.23 to Appo (and at least seven of those game on special teams). Turner didn't wanna run that single wing style offense in 2017, QB (a good QB, Turners son) got injured and he was kinda forced into that offense. A healthy younger Turner and Unions offense would have been much different IMO. They also win it all in 2017 if they beat Appo IMO.

 

Appomattox doesn't run an insane playbook, but they also do an extremely good job of keeping a defense off balance. I'm not sure Union can say the same at this point. 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t 2017 the team that should have lost to a 4-6 Richlands team in Round 1, only for Mance to suffer another playoff pants-crapping and throw the game away?

[S10SQUAREBODY4LIFE 239]

Don't remember another brain fart moment from richlands, just mitchell breaking another good run late in the 4th to go ahead.  Think interior blocked a field goal in the end also.   It was a tight game,  blues were the best 4-6 team and playing for the second time that season.  Hard to beat teams 2x. 

[Deleted Account 5,203]

19 minutes ago, Smashmouth said:

Don't remember another brain fart moment from richlands, just mitchell breaking another good run late in the 4th to go ahead.  Think interior blocked a field goal in the end also.   It was a tight game,  blues were the best 4-6 team and playing for the second time that season.  Hard to beat teams 2x. 

Richlands had the game virtually in hand late in the 4th, with the ball.  All Richlands had to do was run the ball 3 times and execute a successful punt, which would have pinned Union in their own half of the field with about :30 to go.  Instead, Mance decides to air it out and Richlands throws 2 incompletions.  That allows Mitchell to break off that run.  With ~60 yards to go, about :30 to do it, and no TOs, Mitchell isn’t getting a designed run in that spot.  Union may have scored on a miracle play, but it would have been a miracle.

[BigWinners 1,643]

7 hours ago, UVAObserver said:

Correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t 2017 the team that should have lost to a 4-6 Richlands team in Round 1, only for Mance to suffer another playoff pants-crapping and throw the game away?

Union did play from behind, but they had beaten Richlands in regular season as well. 2015 Union beat Richlands by one in OT, and barely escaped Glenvar by 1

[BigWinners 1,643]

5 hours ago, UVAObserver said:

Richlands had the game virtually in hand late in the 4th, with the ball.  All Richlands had to do was run the ball 3 times and execute a successful punt, which would have pinned Union in their own half of the field with about :30 to go.  Instead, Mance decides to air it out and Richlands throws 2 incompletions.  That allows Mitchell to break off that run.  With ~60 yards to go, about :30 to do it, and no TOs, Mitchell isn’t getting a designed run in that spot.  Union may have scored on a miracle play, but it would have been a miracle.

Mance was trying to win the game and avoiding Mitchell getting ball back .it was a calculated risk 

[tiger2001 20]

Richlands schedule was tough that year.  They were a solid 4-6 team with a very limited offense.   Mitchell didn’t have a particularly dominant playoff game until that last run .   Then he did what I’ve seen D1 high school kids do.  He made a play.  A huge one.   D1 athletes will not dominate every high school game.  Teams usually sale out to try and stop them.   But Mitchell was the difference maker.  Turner and Mance were quite possibly the best coaches in Swva for a couple years.   I don’t get the union guys bashing Turner.  From the outside it appears his teams play hard , make fewer mistakes , and his win percentage has to be as high as anyone’s in the area with comparable games under their belts.  Richlands has did well with the spread.  But if you  ask half of the fan base,  they will tell you that they were always somewhat envious of Turners offense.